Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,269
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Post by Luca on Sept 27, 2019 9:57:16 GMT -8
I don't recall it ever being this bizarre. The current political landscape is like wandering through Wonderland with Alice.
There are a few objective givens here, like Donald Trump being poorly suited emotionally and diplomatically for the presidency. But we knew that all along and we still elected him. Only the most irrational and dismissible partisan can still believe that he is somehow "illegitimate."
But a few obvious paradoxes are out there for all to see:
1). A US presidential candidate was targeted with false accusations by someone or some group within the government and a ridiculously partisan and pointless investigation wasted 2 years of valuable time and energy, but yet nobody seems to be responsible for it. "Never mind", as Emily Litella used to say
2). A US president encourages a foreign leader to look into evidence of corruption - which may be a violation of some statute, I don't know - and he is threatened with impeachment for it. Yet it doesn't seem to matter that the corruption in question involved the son of a sitting US vice president (currently running for the presidency) being paid a reported $50K per month by a sleazy Ukrainian oil company, for no apparent reason other than influence peddling. As though it is acceptable to engage in corruption but impermissible to encourage investigation of it.
3). All these hazy and eventually unsustained accusations against Donald Trump (how dare foreign dignitaries stay at Trump Tower), but it was okay for Hilary Clinton while Secretary of State to have a family controlled (theoretically charitable) organization accepting cash from foreign entities.
I don't care at all for Donald Trump personally, however we elected him and personality-wise what you get is what you got. But it is increasingly pissing me off the unprecedented extremes that his opposition is utilizing to to undermine policies they don't like. It pisses me off enough that there is not a snowball's chance in hell that I'm going to vote for anybody else come 2020......................................Luca
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
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Post by davidsf on Sept 27, 2019 10:09:22 GMT -8
Agree with Luca...
I often wonder if these politicians believe they are doing right.
When I see a horrendously beefy woman (or man, for that matter) out in public, dressed in some skimpy outfit, I think much the same thing: Did they really look in the mirror this morning and nod approvingly at how they look?
...and they don’t stop! (The democrats, not the rotund ones)
I’ve posted some uninformed, really stupid stuff on social media (no, no, really... I know it’s hard to believe) for which I get piled on and summarily refuted... so I don’t post that same thing or anything similar again. One might say, I learn my lesson, unlike those democrats in DC.
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Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,269
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Post by Luca on Sept 27, 2019 10:41:47 GMT -8
(Apologize for the digression, Dave, but) Is that line you have at the bottom of your posts a direct quote from William of Occam or is that an interpretation of what someone thinks he meant? I like that interpretation but it's a little different from the one I have always understood.......................Luca
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Post by vilepagan on Sept 27, 2019 11:42:27 GMT -8
1). A US presidential candidate was targeted with false accusations by someone or some group within the government and a ridiculously partisan and pointless investigation wasted 2 years of valuable time and energy, but yet nobody seems to be responsible for it. "Never mind", as Emily Litella used to say 2). A US president encourages a foreign leader to look into evidence of corruption - which may be a violation of some statute, I don't know - and he is threatened with impeachment for it. Yet it doesn't seem to matter that the corruption in question involved the son of a sitting US vice president (currently running for the presidency) being paid a reported $50K per month by a sleazy Ukrainian oil company, for no apparent reason other than influence peddling. As though it is acceptable to engage in corruption but impermissible to encourage investigation of it. 3). All these hazy and eventually unsustained accusations against Donald Trump (how dare foreign dignitaries stay at Trump Tower), but it was okay for Hilary Clinton while Secretary of State to have a family controlled (theoretically charitable) organization accepting cash from foreign entities. I don't care at all for Donald Trump personally, however we elected him and personality-wise what you get is what you got. But it is increasingly pissing me off the unprecedented extremes that his opposition is utilizing to to undermine policies they don't like. It pisses me off enough that there is not a snowball's chance in hell that I'm going to vote for anybody else come 2020......................................Luca 1. That really pissed me off too.....especially all that crap about Benghazi, and don't get me started about the whole 'server' fiasco...how much time and money was wasted? Someone should be held responsible. (your hypocrisy is amusing) 2. You should be on trump's spin team. He isn't being threatened with impeachment for asking Ukraine to investigate corruption, that would be just bizarre. He's being threatened with impeachment for asking a foreign government to interfere in a US election, and he was pressuring them to do so by withholding military aid to that country. But you knew that. Or you should know that, but maybe you're just avoiding the truth. Even some of the guys over at FOX know that. 3. All of your hazy and unsubstantiated allegations against Hillary are just irrelevant to the question of trump's corruption...but nice try at distracting us once again. Seriously Luca, these guys over here are counting on you to be intelligent...don't let them down. |
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Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,269
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Post by Luca on Sept 27, 2019 12:51:39 GMT -8
The criticism of Hillary Clinton for using a private server for government related communications -including sensitive information - while Secretary of State was justified and was of course worthy of investigation. The "Donald Trump Russian collusion" investigation concerned something that never occurred. Technically, that’s a pretty germane distinction.
The verifiable facts as I understand are that Donald Trump encouraged a foreign leader to investigate a situation involving a sitting vice president’s son being paid substantial sums for no apparent reason, and in which that vice president personally intervened in the sovereign investigation of it.
You are interpreting this as encouraging foreign interference "in a US election", and that financial pressure was applied for that purpose. That is possible and should be evaluated, but it is also merely suppositional at this point. What I stated in the previous paragraph is factual.
I didn’t make any "allegations" against Hilary Clinton, hazy or otherwise. I stated the fact that while she was at Secretary of State there was a family controlled organization accepting cash from foreign entities. The word "allegation" means an accusation of wrong doing, typically in the absence of proof. What I stated in my initial post was factual and can be easily documented…...........................Luca
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Post by Zebra on Sept 27, 2019 13:37:02 GMT -8
I don't recall it ever being this bizarre. The current political landscape is like wandering through Wonderland with Alice. There are a few objective givens here, like Donald Trump being poorly suited emotionally and diplomatically for the presidency. But we knew that all along and we still elected him. Only the most irrational and dismissible partisan can still believe that he is somehow "illegitimate." But a few obvious paradoxes are out there for all to see: 1). A US presidential candidate was targeted with false accusations by someone or some group within the government and a ridiculously partisan and pointless investigation wasted 2 years of valuable time and energy, but yet nobody seems to be responsible for it. "Never mind", as Emily Litella used to say 2). A US president encourages a foreign leader to look into evidence of corruption - which may be a violation of some statute, I don't know - and he is threatened with impeachment for it. Yet it doesn't seem to matter that the corruption in question involved the son of a sitting US vice president (currently running for the presidency) being paid a reported $50K per month by a sleazy Ukrainian oil company, for no apparent reason other than influence peddling. As though it is acceptable to engage in corruption but impermissible to encourage investigation of it. 3). All these hazy and eventually unsustained accusations against Donald Trump (how dare foreign dignitaries stay at Trump Tower), but it was okay for Hilary Clinton while Secretary of State to have a family controlled (theoretically charitable) organization accepting cash from foreign entities. I don't care at all for Donald Trump personally, however we elected him and personality-wise what you get is what you got. But it is increasingly pissing me off the unprecedented extremes that his opposition is utilizing to to undermine policies they don't like. It pisses me off enough that there is not a snowball's chance in hell that I'm going to vote for anybody else come 2020......................................Luca No crimes .. there is a Treaty Between the USA & Ukraine Regarding Cooperation For Prosecuting Crimes .. signed by, yup Clinton .in 1999 dcwhispers.com/doh-did-you-know-theres-a-treaty-between-the-usa-ukraine-regarding-cooperation-for-prosecuting-crimes/ |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,225
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Post by RSM789 on Sept 27, 2019 17:37:52 GMT -8
...Seriously Luca, these guys over here are counting on you to be intelligent...don't let them down. Once again, you can't make a post without throwing in a snarky attempt at an insult. And once again, it is about someones intelligence. I looked up "One Trick Pony" on google and found this  |
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
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Post by Credo on Sept 27, 2019 20:48:34 GMT -8
1). A US presidential candidate was targeted with false accusations by someone or some group within the government and a ridiculously partisan and pointless investigation wasted 2 years of valuable time and energy, but yet nobody seems to be responsible for it. "Never mind", as Emily Litella used to say 2). A US president encourages a foreign leader to look into evidence of corruption - which may be a violation of some statute, I don't know - and he is threatened with impeachment for it. Yet it doesn't seem to matter that the corruption in question involved the son of a sitting US vice president (currently running for the presidency) being paid a reported $50K per month by a sleazy Ukrainian oil company, for no apparent reason other than influence peddling. As though it is acceptable to engage in corruption but impermissible to encourage investigation of it. 3). All these hazy and eventually unsustained accusations against Donald Trump (how dare foreign dignitaries stay at Trump Tower), but it was okay for Hilary Clinton while Secretary of State to have a family controlled (theoretically charitable) organization accepting cash from foreign entities. I don't care at all for Donald Trump personally, however we elected him and personality-wise what you get is what you got. But it is increasingly pissing me off the unprecedented extremes that his opposition is utilizing to to undermine policies they don't like. It pisses me off enough that there is not a snowball's chance in hell that I'm going to vote for anybody else come 2020......................................Luca 2. You should be on trump's spin team. He isn't being threatened with impeachment for asking Ukraine to investigate corruption, that would be just bizarre. He's being threatened with impeachment for asking a foreign government to interfere in a US election, and he was pressuring them to do so by withholding military aid to that country. But you knew that. Or you should know that, but maybe you're just avoiding the truth. Even some of the guys over at FOX know that. Clearly, you haven't read the transcript of Trump's call with Ukrainian President Zelensky, or Zelensky's own words just the other day. The facts about both Hunter and Joe Biden's actions in Ukraine are a matter of public record. Yes, Trump asked Zelensky to look into corruption in Ukraine. That's exactly what he asked. And so the Democrats and the media response to this perfectly legitimate concern in, as you say, bizarre--to say the least. Please quote me where Trump asked Zelensky to "interfere in a U.S election," or where Trump even mentioned the 2020 election in any way whatsoever. Would his request to look into corruption have been acceptable to you if Joe Biden wasn't currently running for President? Unfortunately, Joe Biden doesn't get immunity from investigation over his alleged (admitted?) obstruction of justice in Ukraine just because he's running for President. That's not how it works. I'm sorry, sir, it is you who are obviously "making stuff up." |
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Post by vilepagan on Sept 28, 2019 3:06:06 GMT -8
The criticism of Hillary Clinton for using a private server for government related communications -including sensitive information - while Secretary of State was justified and was of course worthy of investigation. The "Donald Trump Russian collusion" investigation concerned something that never occurred. Technically, that’s a pretty germane distinction. The verifiable facts as I understand are that Donald Trump encouraged a foreign leader to investigate a situation involving a sitting vice president’s son being paid substantial sums for no apparent reason, and in which that vice president personally intervened in the sovereign investigation of it. You are interpreting this as encouraging foreign interference "in a US election", and that financial pressure was applied for that purpose. That is possible and should be evaluated, but it is also merely suppositional at this point. What I stated in the previous paragraph is factual. I didn’t make any "allegations" against Hilary Clinton, hazy or otherwise. I stated the fact that while she was at Secretary of State there was a family controlled organization accepting cash from foreign entities. The word "allegation" means an accusation of wrong doing, typically in the absence of proof. What I stated in my initial post was factual and can be easily documented…...........................Luca The situation with Hillary's servers was worthy of investigation...which is why it was investigated, at length, and sadly for you she was found not to have committed a crime. The "Collusion" situation was also deserving of investigation and it was also investigated and trump was found not to have colluded with the Russian government. The only way to find out that the collusion never occurred was of course to investigate, but here you are saying that investigation was unjustified because nothing was found...let's just say I disagree. Yes, I am interpreting trump's actions during the phone call with the president of Ukraine as an attempt to pressure him into investigating Biden. When trump held up the military aid to Ukraine, and then told the president of Ukraine, "we do a lot of stuff for you" and " we want you to do us a favor", while holding up said military aid, that tells me trump was trying to pressure Ukraine to help him out in the next election. You're right when you say that just supposition on my part...but hey, that's what investigations are for right? So let's investigate...I think Congress feels the same way. |
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Post by vilepagan on Sept 28, 2019 3:16:54 GMT -8
2. You should be on trump's spin team. He isn't being threatened with impeachment for asking Ukraine to investigate corruption, that would be just bizarre. He's being threatened with impeachment for asking a foreign government to interfere in a US election, and he was pressuring them to do so by withholding military aid to that country. But you knew that. Or you should know that, but maybe you're just avoiding the truth. Even some of the guys over at FOX know that. Clearly, you haven't read the transcript of Trump's call with Ukrainian President Zelensky, or Zelensky's own words just the other day. The facts about both Hunter and Joe Biden's actions in Ukraine are a matter of public record. Yes, Trump asked Zelensky to look into corruption in Ukraine. That's exactly what he asked. Incorrect on all counts. I have read the summary of the call, the transcript has yet to be released. Yes the facts about the Biden's are a matter of public record...perhaps you should tell trump to look at that record because he's got some pretty bizarre ideas about what the Biden's did. What trump asked Zelensky was, according to the whistle-blower: Multiple White House officials with direct knowledge of the call informed me that, after an initial exchange of pleasantries, the President used the remainder of the call to advance his personal interests. Namely, he sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the President’s 2020 reelection bid. According to the White House officials who had direct knowledge of the call, the President pressured Mr. Zelenskyy to, inter alia:
initiate or continue an investigation into the activities of former Vice President Joseph Biden and his son, Hunter Biden;
assist in purportedly uncovering that allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election originated in Ukraine, with a specific request that the Ukrainian leader locate and turn over servers used by the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and examined by the U.S. cyber security firm Crowdstrike, which initially reported that Russian hackers had penetrated the DNC’s networks in 2016; and
meet or speak with two people the President named explicitly as his personal envoys on these matters, Mr. Giuliani and Attorney General Barr, to whom the President referred multiple times in tandem.That's exactly what he asked. I understand why you don't want trump to be investigated, but he will be nevertheless. |
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duke
Statesman
Posts: 681
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Post by duke on Sept 28, 2019 8:54:52 GMT -8
Geez VP, the so-called whistleblower is actually a CIA leaker who is providing hearsay. Yet you and Schiff are on the same page by believing what you read into a leaker with a bias. As usual, you show what a political hack you continue to be by your own constant regurgitation of Leftist spin A lot of credible people feel this leakers report was written by a group of anti-Trump lawyers. Most likely to try to soften the blow for the obvious latest pay to play schemes of the Democratic Presidential candidates ( remember the Clinton Foundation, or will you continue to look the other way on that one too) and the coming release of the IG report on FISA abuse. There's an election in about 1 year, vote the guy out if you don't like his policies, but this constant harassment by sore losers will, I hope, bite hacks like you in the arse. This impeachment BS is a misdirection as usual.
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SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,109
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Post by SK80 on Sept 28, 2019 9:44:55 GMT -8
"Leftist Spin" or DNC playbook.... easy read hard to watch!  |
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Bick
Administrator 
Posts: 6,705
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Post by Bick on Sept 28, 2019 10:39:28 GMT -8
This seems like a very simplistic, but accurate view of what's transpiring here.
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Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,269
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Post by Luca on Sept 28, 2019 12:45:48 GMT -8
The situation with Hillary's servers was worthy of investigation...which is why it was investigated, at length, and sadly for you she was found not to have committed a crime. The "Collusion" situation was also deserving of investigation and it was also investigated and trump was found not to have colluded with the Russian government. The only way to find out that the collusion never occurred was of course to investigate, but here you are saying that investigation was unjustified because nothing was found...let's just say I disagree. Yes, I am interpreting trump's actions during the phone call with the president of Ukraine as an attempt to pressure him into investigating Biden. When trump held up the military aid to Ukraine, and then told the president of Ukraine, "we do a lot of stuff for you" and " we want you to do us a favor", while holding up said military aid, that tells me trump was trying to pressure Ukraine to help him out in the next election. You're right when you say that just supposition on my part...but hey, that's what investigations are for right? So let's investigate...I think Congress feels the same way. No, Vilepagan, what I am saying is that the investigation of "Russian collusion" was unjustified because it never happened. It was a concocted charade. Hillary Clinton did in fact use her own server for official communications in contravention of regulations. There is no denying that: she admitted it herself. She was found not guilty of criminal activity, and perhaps rightly so. I’m not "sad" about that and didn’t care much. Because criminal activity was not the issue for most people. It was the arrogance and entitlement she demonstrated in doing so that alienated so many people and played a considerable role in her losing the election. Again, not to make too fine a point of this but the distinction here is that Hillary Clinton did engage in her attributed behavior, whereas Donald Trump did not. We can interpret someone's motivation however we like. Leaders routinely ask their opposite number for considerations. Whether and why he delayed military aid to the Ukraine is open to interpretation at this point. I may be incorrect here but I believe the aid in question went through at any rate, and it’s not clear that the Ukrainian president even acted on his request. If so, it’s debatable whether there was any "pressure", as you put it, involved. Lastly it appears that the House of Representatives is not simply "investigating", they are discussing "impeachment" based on insufficient information and premature conclusions such as yours. Given the recent Democratic political theatrics re "Russian collusion” and “obstruction of justice” and tax returns, etc., I suspect most do not find this crisis du jour terribly convincing. But certainly, investigate away. I told you a few months ago on TOB that the "Russian collusion" investigation was a histrionic loser. This is likely the same……………………………..Luca |
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
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Post by davidsf on Sept 28, 2019 14:07:57 GMT -8
1). A US presidential candidate was targeted with false accusations by someone or some group within the government and a ridiculously partisan and pointless investigation wasted 2 years of valuable time and energy, but yet nobody seems to be responsible for it. "Never mind", as Emily Litella used to say 2). A US president encourages a foreign leader to look into evidence of corruption - which may be a violation of some statute, I don't know - and he is threatened with impeachment for it. Yet it doesn't seem to matter that the corruption in question involved the son of a sitting US vice president (currently running for the presidency) being paid a reported $50K per month by a sleazy Ukrainian oil company, for no apparent reason other than influence peddling. As though it is acceptable to engage in corruption but impermissible to encourage investigation of it. 3). All these hazy and eventually unsustained accusations against Donald Trump (how dare foreign dignitaries stay at Trump Tower), but it was okay for Hilary Clinton while Secretary of State to have a family controlled (theoretically charitable) organization accepting cash from foreign entities. I don't care at all for Donald Trump personally, however we elected him and personality-wise what you get is what you got. But it is increasingly pissing me off the unprecedented extremes that his opposition is utilizing to to undermine policies they don't like. It pisses me off enough that there is not a snowball's chance in hell that I'm going to vote for anybody else come 2020......................................Luca 1. That really pissed me off too.....especially all that crap about Benghazi, and don't get me started about the whole 'server' fiasco...how much time and money was wasted? Someone should be held responsible. (your hypocrisy is amusing) 2. You should be on trump's spin team. He isn't being threatened with impeachment for asking Ukraine to investigate corruption, that would be just bizarre. He's being threatened with impeachment for asking a foreign government to interfere in a US election, and he was pressuring them to do so by withholding military aid to that country. But you knew that. Or you should know that, but maybe you're just avoiding the truth. Even some of the guys over at FOX know that. 3. All of your hazy and unsubstantiated allegations against Hillary are just irrelevant to the question of trump's corruption...but nice try at distracting us once again. Seriously Luca, these guys over here are counting on you to be intelligent...don't let them down. Incredible... 3 years since, and he’s still carrying water for Cankles. Sheesh, shouldn’t you already be in Canada by now? |
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