RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Apr 16, 2019 14:43:35 GMT -8
Do I understand you to say that Jim McMillan was a greater player than Elgin Baylor? No, their roles were very different, so you can't compare them. Elgin was an extremely talented player, maybe one of the top 5 talents ever, but he couldn't win titles, either as a player, coach or executive. In fact, it is legitimate to argue that Baylor held back West from winning titles as a player. When the two parted ways, West picked up his only title as a player and then went on to pick up 8 titles as an executive (6 with the Lakers, 2 with Golden State). |
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Apr 16, 2019 15:09:50 GMT -8
Sorry, RSM, but you couldn't be more wrong on this point. Championships in team sports are a team accomplishment, and Russell played on teams with more very good players than Chamberlain, West, Baylor, or anyone else of that era. All things being equal, I think most basketball experts wouldn't put Bill Russell in their all-time top five, and maybe not even in their top ten. Or, those experts could be rating players on talent & not greatness. There is a distinct difference in having talent (having physical or mental skills) and being great (the ability to use whatever talent you have and achieve the goal at hand, i.e., championships). This rating of greatness is reserved for players who lead teams, not players who are support, no matter how talented they may be. Michael Jordan was one of the greatest basketball players ever, Scottie Pippen was not. The Lakers of the 60's had more talent than the Celtics of the 60's, but the Celtics were better, a fact born out of Championships in 11 of 13 years. The leaders of the Lakers were more talented than the leaders of the Celtics. What Russell did that West & Baylor couldn't was get the most out of their support players and lead teams to titles. If winning titles does not translate to greatness, then why even have championships? What weight does a championship carry if not being a declaration of the best? As a reminder, I HATE, yes HATE, anything to do with Boston sports. I despise their teams, their fans and many of their players. However, I am not going to be one of those fans whose team loses, yet we then declare we were better. The teams I root for may be more talented, but if they don't win the titles, declaring the leaders of the team to be greater players than ones who did win titles is nothing more than sour grapes. |
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
Member is Online
|
Post by MDDad on Apr 16, 2019 15:17:16 GMT -8
So it seems that in your thinking, the only way to be considered a "great" player is to have the good fortune to land on a very good team capable of winning championships. Sorry, but that's too limiting for me. Ted Williams never won a world series, nor did Ernie Banks. And Mike Trout has never won a playoff game. Would you say they weren't/aren't great players for that reason?
|
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Apr 16, 2019 17:47:52 GMT -8
I disagree that winning championships requires "good fortune". My contention is that you win championships through effort, will & talent, you don't luck into them. Michael Jordan is a prime example of a great player who won with players & a franchise that had never won before.
Granted, a single individual has less impact in football, where he can be kept off the field by the opposing offense/defense or in baseball, where the opposing team can pitch around you. However, to believe that talent is the only impact an individual has on a team or contest is misleading. Kirk Gibson was a great baseball player, the best example being his leadership in the 1988 World Series where he had just 1 at-bat, yet he led the Dodgers to a stunning World Series win. There are tons of quarterbacks who had more physical talent than Joe Montana, but I find it hard to argue that he wasn't one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time based on his Super Bowl victories.
Ted Williams was a great hitter, the best one of his era, however he was never able to turn that skill into at least one World Series win. How can you be a great player if you have skills greater than everyone else but you can't translate that into at least one title? Trout is the most talented player in the game right now, but I would say that Jose Altuve is a better player than him at this point in time based on Altuve's ability to lead his team. Trout may end up with titles, not all great players win right out the gate, but it will say something about him if he is unable to win a World Series with all his talent.
I would suggest that I define talented & great as two different things while you consider them to be synonyms.
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
Member is Online
|
Post by MDDad on Apr 16, 2019 21:50:21 GMT -8
Kirk Gibson was a great baseball player
You may be the only person on the planet who would consider Kirk Gibson a great baseball player. He was a good player who had one at bat for the ages.
Ted Williams was a great hitter, the best one of his era, however he was never able to turn that skill into at least one World Series win. How can you be a great player if you have skills greater than everyone else but you can't translate that into at least one title?
It's because he was not on a team good enough to win at least one title.
Trout may end up with titles, not all great players win right out the gate, but it will say something about him if he is unable to win a World Series with all his talent.
Yes, it will say the players around him were not good enough to win a World Series, nothing more.
|
|
Bick
Administrator 
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Apr 17, 2019 5:40:17 GMT -8
I think in order to be considered in the GOAT discussion in a team dependent sport, you need to have rings. Lifting everyone around you should be a big part of the equation. I think these guys got theirs with multiple sets of players.
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Tom Brady
Joe Montana
Wayne Gretzky
Baseball is a team sport that doesn't really rely on a team working together for the most part. Yes, the great hitters may not see a bunch of good pitches without anyone prote6ng them in the lineup. Pitchers with weak fielders would have larger ERAs. But your up there 1 on 1 for the most part.
|
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Apr 17, 2019 6:40:34 GMT -8
If you have to depend on other players to get you a title, you are not a great player. A great player will win at least 1 title in their career, even if they have to drag their teammates across the finish line for the championship.
As I think about this, I think your perspective may be skewed by your high school sports experience. Mater Dei's teams are often stacked with the most talent, especially in basketball, which helps them win titles. However, that kind of stacking does not really occur in major league sports, where the talent level between the best & worst players in the league is not that much. Often in the majors, it takes intangibles to win, not just talent because everyone has talent. Those intangibles are what separate the great players from everyone else.
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
Member is Online
|
Post by MDDad on Apr 17, 2019 8:29:28 GMT -8
If you have to depend on other players to get you a title, you are not a great player.
Considering we're talking about team sports, I can't believe you actually believe that.
A great player will win at least 1 title in their career, even if they have to drag their teammates across the finish line for the championship.
OK, here's a quick list of players who never won even a single championship in their professional careers:
Patrick Ewing
Randy Moss
Terrell Owens
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Warren Moon
Dan Fouts
Ernie Banks
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Bruce Smith
Tony Gonzalez
Ken Griffey Jr.
Marcel Dione
Ty Cobb
Ted Williams
Frank Tarkenton
O.J. Simpson
Eric Dickerson
Elgin Baylor
Barry Sanders
Barry Bonds
Dan Marino
Earl Campbell
Gale Sayers
Tony Gwynn
Many of those guys are routinely in the discussion for greatest ever at their position, and some for greatest ever in their sport. Yet in your book none of them were great players?
|
|
Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by Luca on Apr 17, 2019 12:40:47 GMT -8
We could do one of Einstein's thought experiments:
Take a team of "great" players who won championships and pit them against the losers who never did.
On one team we would have players with multiple championships:
Bill Cartwright at Center,
Robert Horry at power forward
Derek Fisher at point guard
Draymond Green at forward
Ron Harper at guard
Opposing them we would have
Patrick Ewing at Center,
Steve Nash at point guard
Karl Malone at power forward
George Gervin at shooting guard
Elgin Baylor at small forward
Would you put your money on the great players or the losers?.....................Luca
|
|
Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by Luca on Apr 17, 2019 12:46:07 GMT -8
In fact, it is legitimate to argue that Baylor held back West from winning titles as a player. When the two parted ways, West picked up his only title as a player and then went on to pick up 8 titles as an executive (6 with the Lakers, 2 with Golden State). We must have different definitions of legitimacy. By the time Elgin Baylor retired the Lakers had picked up Wilt Chamberlain whom they had not had prior to that. I suspect he may have made the difference, not the absence of Elgin Baylor. I don't think you can say that Baylor held Jerry West back from winning his 8 titles as an executive since Jerry - not to belabor the obvious - was still playing basketball when Baylor was his teammate.....................Luca |
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Apr 17, 2019 18:30:34 GMT -8
We could do one of Einstein's thought experiments: Take a team of "great" players who won championships and pit them against the losers who never did. On one team we would have players with multiple championships: Bill Cartwright at Center, Robert Horry at power forward Derek Fisher at point guard Draymond Green at forward Ron Harper at guard Opposing them we would have Patrick Ewing at Center, Steve Nash at point guard Karl Malone at power forward George Gervin at shooting guard Elgin Baylor at small forward Would you put your money on the great players or the losers?.....................Luca You have twisted my argument into something it never was. I wrote specifically that I was speaking of players who had led their teams to championships, not just players who won championships. Cartwright, Horry & Harper never led their teams to titles. A case could be made that maybe Fisher & Green might have, but that would be a bit of a stretch. Kobe and Curry were the leaders of those teams that won titles. I feel as if I am talking to Alzeheimers patients, having to write that qualification over & over again. Let me phrase it this way: Titles don't make a player great, rather to be great, a talented player has to lead their team to titles; BTW, my multiple title team of Great players would be: Bill Russell at center; Tim Duncan at power forward; Larry Bird at small forward; Michael Jordan at shooting guard; Magic Johnson at point guard. Then again, since the other team has Elgin Baylor, we could march out the Harlem Globetrotters and Elgin would find a way to not win... |
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Apr 17, 2019 18:38:09 GMT -8
We must have different definitions of legitimacy. By the time Elgin Baylor retired the Lakers had picked up Wilt Chamberlain whom they had not had prior to that. I suspect he may have made the difference, not the absence of Elgin Baylor. I don't think you can say that Baylor held Jerry West back from winning his 8 titles as an executive since Jerry - not to belabor the obvious - was still playing basketball when Baylor was his teammate.....................Luca Actually, Wilt came to the Lakers for the 68-69 season and played 3 full seasons with Baylor. The Lakers finally won the title in 72 without Baylor and with Wilt taking a different, lesser role thanks to new head coach, Bill Sharman. It was tongue-in-cheek about Baylor holding back West. It just seems more than coincidental that Baylor never won any title in any capacity and West did only after he was no longer on the same team with Baylor. |
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Apr 17, 2019 18:48:14 GMT -8
A great player will win at least 1 title in their career, even if they have to drag their teammates across the finish line for the championship.OK, here's a quick list of players who never won even a single championship in their professional careers: Patrick Ewing Randy Moss Terrell Owens John Stockton Steve Nash Warren Moon Dan Fouts Ernie Banks Charles Barkley Karl Malone Bruce Smith Tony Gonzalez Ken Griffey Jr. Marcel Dione Ty Cobb Ted Williams Frank Tarkenton O.J. Simpson Eric Dickerson Elgin Baylor Barry Sanders Barry Bonds Dan Marino Earl Campbell Gale Sayers Tony Gwynn Many of those guys are routinely in the discussion for greatest ever at their position, and some for greatest ever in their sport. Yet in your book none of them were great players? Are those players considered the greatest ever at their position or the most talented at their position? If those discussions make the distinction between talented & great, then I'd bet those discussions would list those players as most talented, not greatest. Here is another perspective for this - who was a better player, Spud Webb or Steve Nash? While both players were extremely talented, Nash would be the choice of nearly everyone because his skill set led to more victories than the skills that Spud had. Spud was probably a better athlete, but Nash is the better basketball player because he was able to lead his team to wins. Now, knowing that titles are the ultimate victories, why would that not be the measure of who was a better player between extremely talented individuals? |
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
Member is Online
|
Post by MDDad on Apr 17, 2019 21:29:28 GMT -8
RSM, dude, this is one you're not going to win. So much like in the debate over the origins and nature of rights, we can either decide to disagree, or you can just admit that you're wrong. Being a Servite guy, that should come as second nature.
|
|
Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
|
Post by Credo on Apr 17, 2019 22:09:56 GMT -8
Joe Biden's favorite photo of the Pirates could never happen in today's #MeToo era.
|
|
