Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
|
Post by Credo on Nov 20, 2022 21:50:49 GMT -8
I'm just curious, is that meme a reference to the I.E. pipeline orginally established by Frank Kalil for Servite? If so, you sound a little like Christopher Columbus complaining about all the other Europeans that followed him to the New World. Yes, Servite had a handful of kids who came in from Corona 15+ years ago. I haven't seen one in the 12 years I've been at the school. And Mission Viejo had their infamous "farm program" back in the Bush administration--or was it Bill Clinton's? Don't forget about Edison's transfers in the early 1980's. You didn't mention the part where Servite brought in 4-star public school transfers from Rancho Cucamonga and Stockton, transformed themselves into an entirely Black and Samoan squad, lost only one regular season game in seven years, and beat the #4 team in the state--and it's 5-star QB and WR--by a score of 52-0. Oh, that didn't happen. Guess we just aren't as committed to a "winning culture" as they are in Santa Ana.
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
|
Post by MDDad on Nov 20, 2022 22:34:07 GMT -8
Guess we just aren't as committed to a "winning culture" as they are in Santa Ana. You were certainly committed to a "winning culture" four years ago when you "brought in" Les Fifita and his national champion Buckeye team with deals that can only be described as sweetheart. And Bick can expound in more detail than I can on what Servite did to the Los Alamitos program that summer. Or maybe "winning culture" is just a relative term.
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Nov 21, 2022 17:30:23 GMT -8
Credo, I guess this is the real question...should a student / athlete who lives a certain district be forced to attend that school, regardless of whether or not it's in his best interests? The only exception to this is if he attended a private school because they have no geographic boundaries? I'm in favor of school choice--within the same district--because the public school system is funded by the property taxes of those who live in a defined geographic area. If someone wants to attend school in a different district then they're free to move. People do that all the time. Their other choice is to attend a private school either within or outside their district. My wife and I have been sending our kids to Catholic schools for 11 years now. Almost all of the students at Los Al HS have attended the feeder elementary and middle schools of that same district. Students from outside the district are essentially "free riders." Now if there was some way a district could charge a fee for students outside the district that might make some sense. A conservative estimate on the average property taxes in homes within the Los Alamitos district is at least $8K per year. The other thing I would say as it pertains to elite athletes and schools is that "what's in their best interest" is not a sufficient rationale. It's in the "best interest" of most of the kids who live in Santa Ana to attend Foothill HS or Newport Harbor HS rather than Valley HS or Santa Ana HS. That doesn't mean they can all just transfer. It's in the "best interest" for half the population of Mexico to move the the U.S. That doesn't justify an Open Borders policy--unless you're a Democrat. Different "interests" need to be weighed in order to figure out the best policy. I know it's definitely "in the best interest" of some HSFB programs to admit the top athletes they can--regardless of where they live. Is the argument that public schools should essentially have no boundaries? Not sure how many parents at LAHS or any other desirable location would be in favor of that. I'm a business guy and appreciate excellence, and that is exactly what MD & SJB are. My sense is that MD & SJB significantly changed the importance of excelling in athletics a decade ago. I think that's their prerogative in the same way yours and others do NOT. They've made significant investments in their facilities and coaching staffs that you haven't, and that has served as a very solid foundation for them to build upon. Today is a result of them consciously building a better mousetrap, and now they should continue to dominate for the foreseeable future. Agree on the Trinity and the whole public v. private debate as being inaccurate. All but 2 privates are competitive with publics. MD & SJB have lapped the rest of the field, and the other 4 teams are nuts to stay in that league with them in football. At some point, maybe now even, it's a real safety issue. I think I've shared this a number of times now, if I'm a decision maker at one of the other 4 TL schools and can't move to a more competitive league in football, I'm not taking the field against either MD or SJB, and will schedule other schools on those weeks. Take the TL loss, and schedule competitive games instead. They did that in the league Sierra Canyon was in before they joined the Mission League, so it's not unprecedented. I think the real fallout is that the TL schools will continue to lose the really good players to the publics. That might be what you're seeing right now. In the past, all those local incoming freshmen who aren't SEC level kids, would have been enticed into going to the Servite's and the OLu's. Why would they do that now? I AM curious though regarding Servite's behavior just 5 years ago when you raided our team. I don't recall you ever addressing this directly, so here's a very direct question for you...which is worse... A private school that makes the commitment to better themselves through their own investment, or A private school raiding a local public school of their players and coaches? I'm not busting your chops on this, but it DID happen, and I don't recall much hand-wringing about it from color pallete challenged side.
|
|
Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
|
Post by Credo on Nov 23, 2022 21:44:02 GMT -8
Guess we just aren't as committed to a "winning culture" as they are in Santa Ana. You were certainly committed to a "winning culture" four years ago when you "brought in" Les Fifita and his national champion Buckeye team with deals that can only be described as sweetheart. And Bick can expound in more detail than I can on what Servite did to the Los Alamitos program that summer. Or maybe "winning culture" is just a relative term. The transfer of several Los Al players to Servite in 2018 is a fair criticism, which is more than anyone at St. John Bosco or Mater Dei is willing to concede about their close to decade-long raiding of players from other schools and out-of-the-area regions. I won't deflect, as seems to be the habit with other schools' defenders. So, yes, the "winning culture" characterization is relative. Absolutely. As soon as we "bring in" public school 4-star transfers like Sean Dollars and Raleek Brown, and other #1 ranked position players like Miller Moss and Bryce Young, as well as a trove of IE all-stars year after year that, added up, has destroyed any semblance of competitive balance in the Trinity League and D1 football, then any criticism from Edinger Ave. might carry some weight. I recall hearing in January or February 2018, after Troy Thomas was re-hired, that some kids from Los Alamitos were transferring to Servite. And Servite had just lost its 4 best players (all D1 kids) to St. John Bosco and JSerra in the days after Scott Meyer departed as HC. That talented kids from Orange County, with the hiring of a coach with Troy Thomas's resume, would jump at the chance to re-ignite a historic program like Servite, which was in their area after all, shouldn't be surprising. Nobody twisted their arms to enroll at Servite .A couple of those new kids, like Zedekiah Centers and Noah Avinger, later were students of mine. All those Buckeye kids were from areas we would normally see at Servite and most never attended Los Al for a single day, being 8th graders at the time. That being said, we've lost a boatload of talented kids to other programs over the last decade--and it sucks. So for that, Griffin Nation can feel understandably bitter. That's fair. Los Al has seemed to rebound quite nicely and we were 1-9 last year, so perhaps there's a bit of Karma in that. For all that that generational group achieved in 2021, Servite still went 1-5 against MD and Bosco that year and was outmanned at all but two positions on the field. That we were competitive in almost all of those games might turn out to be fool's gold if it leads other programs to think they have a realistic chance to compete with those two. What that experience confirmed for Servite, however, is that bringing in kids for football talent alone is not a 100% positive-only proposition. It carries its own baggage. Every school--public and private--needs to consider that. There's always going to be some measure of recruiting and effort to have a competitive team within one's league. To try to get to the level of MD and Bosco, however, would require a compromising of our mission as a Catholic school. We would become, as they have become, nothing more than a "brand name" that happens to be attached to a school, without any real connection to their Catholic mission, their history, or their geographic roots. BTW, as you well know, Les and his coaches--and his other son--have now moved on to Mater Dei. They clearly found a better deal. Those being OC kids, I have no problem with that. Look, I have no problem with getting outplayed, outcoached, or out-executed; or simply having a less talented squad at any time. Those are not permanent issues and can be fixed in-season or two or three years down the road. But when two schools have totally eliminated those factors by a ridiculous advantage in sheer size, speed, and talent--by admitting kids, who for reasons of distance and/or background simply have no business being at those schools--then what's the point? They are only preparing to play each other; all other games are merely glorified scrimmages to get some reps. They serve no competitive purpose. The position of Mater Dei and Bosco seems to be that as long as they can point to any transfers or kids from outside OC that have at any time have gone to other schools, then they are absolved from addressing their decisions which have transformed them into entities that resemble nothing in the history of HSFB. If not a single Buckeyes player had ever attended Servite, it wouldn't change that reality.
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Nov 25, 2022 18:59:53 GMT -8
I'm not suggesting the gap is fair. There's no question they have a ridiculous talent gap over everyone but themselves. With 70+ D1 guys on their rosters, what's that...70% of the TOTAL D1 talent in the Southern Section? Hell, their 2nd stringers have more D1 guys than every other team in the Section.
My issue is that rather than complain about what they did, congratulate them on their success. EVERY other team would want to enjoy that same level of talent - even Servite. You wouldn't have accepted all those Los Al kids and coaches if you weren't looking to do the same, right? Fact is, they built a better mousetrap than the rest of us.
So now what?
I suggest we stop playing them, and set them free to conquer the other nationally ranked teams. They've earned it.
|
|
|
Post by ProfessorFate on Nov 25, 2022 19:44:18 GMT -8
My issue is that rather than complain about what they did, congratulate them on their success. No f--king way will I ever congratulate them. They've ruined HS Football. EVERY other team would want to enjoy that same level of talent - even Servite. You wouldn't have accepted all those Los Al kids and coaches if you weren't looking to do the same, right? Wrong! The key word here is "accepted." MD and SJB actively go after transfers. Servite accepts them if they want to transfer to Servite. As you no doubt already know, those players who left Los Al, were all former OC Buckeyes...(teammates of Fifita, and TMac, who entered Servite as freshman), and wanted to play with them again. Most of them were only at Los Al as freshmen, and, correct me if I'm wrong, none were varsity starters (unlike the transfers that we see showing up at MD or Bosco as established varsity starters).Fact is, they built a better mousetrap than the rest of us. Using recruiting methods most schools won't use.I suggest we stop playing them, and set them free to conquer the other nationally ranked teams. They've earned it. I agree...they deserve to have teams refuse to play them, and I've been advocating exactly that for years now.
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Nov 25, 2022 23:38:45 GMT -8
C'mon Prof. You think it was a coincidence they all left at the same time right when Troy got there?
I don't begrudge those players and coaches seeking a better fit for themselves, but let's not do the "they were only freshmen" thing. Those freshmen and sophomores got significant playing time on Varsity. It gutted our program like NO OTHER school has done to another school that I've ever seen. I'm not sure how they got around the rule about players following a coach who moved to another school.
|
|
|
Post by ProfessorFate on Nov 26, 2022 3:52:01 GMT -8
C'mon Prof. You think it was a coincidence they all left at the same time right when Troy got there? I don't begrudge those players and coaches seeking a better fit for themselves, but let's not do the "they were only freshmen" thing. Those freshmen and sophomores got significant playing time on Varsity. It gutted our program like NO OTHER school has done to another school that I've ever seen. I'm not sure how they got around the rule about players following a coach who moved to another school. 1. Scott Meyer didn't resign until January 19, 2018. Troy Thomas was hired January 30th. 2. The 2nd semester, if I recall, starts in January. Thomas was hired after that, and, in fact was hired so late that Servite's 2018 schedule was never completely filled. 3. Again, from memory, I am pretty sure the Centers brothers and Fata (and possibly more) were already sitting in class at Servite for the spring semester, before Troy was hired. If anyone recruited Los Al players, it wasn't Troy Thomas. I'm guessing the incoming frosh players that I mentioned, gave the Los Al players the encouragement to join them at Servite, though I am only guessing. The main point of my last post was that the Los Al transfers, that Servite accepted, although talented, weren't already established starters. If they had been, Mater Dei or Bosco would have snatched them up long before that could happen, and if they had...Fifita and TMac would have probably joined them there, instead of the other way around at Servite.
|
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Nov 26, 2022 7:24:31 GMT -8
Always love these threads or debates on transfers, you do it worse, no you do it better.... "Round and round we go, where he stops nobody know!" Yet last night watching SJB and Deandre Moore running all over MD I couldn't get this scripture out of my head, “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away”!
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Nov 26, 2022 12:33:22 GMT -8
C'mon Prof. You think it was a coincidence they all left at the same time right when Troy got there? I don't begrudge those players and coaches seeking a better fit for themselves, but let's not do the "they were only freshmen" thing. Those freshmen and sophomores got significant playing time on Varsity. It gutted our program like NO OTHER school has done to another school that I've ever seen. I'm not sure how they got around the rule about players following a coach who moved to another school. 1. Scott Meyer didn't resign until January 19, 2018. Troy Thomas was hired January 30th. 2. The 2nd semester, if I recall, starts in January. Thomas was hired after that, and, in fact was hired so late that Servite's 2018 schedule was never completely filled. 3. Again, from memory, I am pretty sure the Centers brothers and Fata (and possibly more) were already sitting in class at Servite for the spring semester, before Troy was hired. If anyone recruited Los Al players, it wasn't Troy Thomas. I'm guessing the incoming frosh players that I mentioned, gave the Los Al players the encouragement to join them at Servite, though I am only guessing. The main point of my last post was that the Los Al transfers, that Servite accepted, although talented, weren't already established starters. If they had been, Mater Dei or Bosco would have snatched them up long before that could happen, and if they had...Fifita and TMac would have probably joined them there, instead of the other way around at Servite. You don't think Troy and Les were talking before the hiring, and it was really just all one strange coincidence that every kid & coach that left Los Al for Servite was affiliated with the OC Buckeyes...and the OCB stopped using Los Al field and began using Servite's? Sorry fellas. You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone not in black & white that you weren't trying to do the same as the 3 stripers and the spears.
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
|
Post by MDDad on Nov 26, 2022 13:43:51 GMT -8
Verbs are often so telling about the author, don't you think? Servite "accepts" transfers, but only if they "want" to transfer to Servite. But Mater Dei and Bosco "actively go after transfers", presumably whether they want to transfer or not. Is that right?
So when Servite players "encourage" players from other schools to join them, that's OK? But if Mater Dei or Bosco players do the same, that's sinister and evil. Is that right?
And what would those "recruiting methods" be that no other school would stoop to use?
Once again, Servite "accepted" the transfers they got, but had they chosen to go to Mater Dei or Bosco instead, they would been "snatched up". Is that right?
Honestly, Professor, you have the advantage of an eagle's eye from a thousand miles away without knowing anything about the programs you disparage, and you use incendiary verbs and descriptors that are clearly born of some combination of hatred, anger, envy, frustration and lack of knowledge to indict them.
And by the way, we did not have a single transfer among our 22 starters last night. So if we "actively go after them" and "snatch them up", we sure suck at it.
|
|
|
Post by outofstate on Nov 26, 2022 14:46:55 GMT -8
And by the way, we did not have a single transfer among our 22 starters last night. So if we "actively go after them" and "snatch them up", we sure suck at it. Although it would be nice if a kicker decides to transfer in next season 😂
|
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Nov 26, 2022 15:12:48 GMT -8
And by the way, we did not have a single transfer among our 22 starters last night. So if we "actively go after them" and "snatch them up", we sure suck at it. Come on, can we say you used the so called "actively go after...", "snatch them up" modus operandi for years to get to this point where you no longer have to engage or use such tactics or operations. Your a "destination" program now and no longer need to rely on what once was used to get you here. At least for now.
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
|
Post by MDDad on Nov 26, 2022 15:33:46 GMT -8
SK, we became a "destination program" in the summer of 2015 when J.T. Daniels enrolled at the school. I've written a lengthy disseration on exactly what happened that summer and you can go back and read it if you like. If we no longer rely on transfers, then why is the Professor still bitching about it?
|
|
|
Post by ProfessorFate on Nov 26, 2022 22:37:19 GMT -8
You don't think Troy and Les were talking before the hiring, and it was really just all one strange coincidence that every kid & coach that left Los Al for Servite was affiliated with the OC Buckeyes...and the OCB stopped using Los Al field and began using Servite's? Sorry fellas. You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone not in black & white that you weren't trying to do the same as the 3 stripers and the spears. Why would one go out of their way to get players to transfer to a school he might not even get hired onto? Well then let's agree to disagree.
|
|