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Post by vilepagan on Nov 17, 2019 11:22:09 GMT -8
I agree 100%.
I would imagine everyone knows someone like that.
It really wasn't all that traumatic for me, but like you I imagine it can be rough for some kids. As I said I didn't "come out" until I was 19 and until that time I had only confided in a few friends. For me it wasn't something people assumed about me, I'm what you call "straight acting". The "coming out" part was a cathartic experience to be sure, when I had "the talk" with my mother at any rate. I remember one of my high school guidance counselors saying to me in frustration that she thought I was 'extremely well-adjusted', so I've always been ok with being a little different.
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by davidsf on Nov 20, 2019 8:27:47 GMT -8
My sense is that for the vast majority, we are as we are wired, and to expect someone to overcome the conflict of being something they really aren't, is a setup for failure. In other words, it's easy for me to sit in judgement of another who doesn't conform to what 95% of the rest are. Fact is, I've seen kids who I knew were "different" at the same age you've mentioned, and wasn't very surprised to learn they came out as being gay. I can't really imagine what that must be like for a 6 year old to have to go through. I get the school yard bullying stuff. Most everyone has been bullied at one point or another. But I imagine for you and other kids, it must've reached the point of being unbearable. Not many here would be able to understand the experience of having a weight like that finally lifted when you came out and said, this is who I am...deal with it...because I sure as hell have. Your sense is not supported by the research. most of the research is hampered by small sample sizes, but a large study conducted in Sweden (2005-2006) showed some genetic predisposition towards same-sex attraction (up to 35% of the cause in males and up to 18% in females), but even that study suffered from sample bias in that - Only twins were studied and
- Only 20-49 year olds were studied (or people already oriented towards one or the other)
the vast majority of sexual orientation determinants were nurture. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18536986/
Other, lower reliability studies have suggested a predisposition towards homosexuality is hardwired, but then manifests (in makes) through some combination of emotional or physical absence of a father and an overbearing, and manipulative mother.. generally speaking, and exceptions were noted.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 21, 2019 6:21:03 GMT -8
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Post by captaintrips on Jan 13, 2020 6:48:57 GMT -8
Perverted sick people doing what perverted sick people do... this is no surprise, or shouldn't be BUT, those few who like to pretend reality isn't reality might be surprisedThey will dream up many creative excuses and find ways to blame someone else, or accuse someone else of worse ... this is what sick people do".. homosexual rape is, just as we predicted, a serious problem in the American military since the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. The Department of Defense just released its biannual report on sexual assault in the military, and the numbers are horrendous for heterosexual men who are forced into close quarters with men who turn out to be homosexual predators. .." Imagine THAT ?!?!? What a surprise ? ? .. No it's only a surprise to the morons who thought this might be a good idea... thanks obama" The human cost of homosexuality in the military is devastating, not to mention the military cost to unit morale, retention, and recruitment. Our first commander-in-chief, George Washington, understood all this and literally drummed homosexuals out of his Continental Army.
Bottom line: every single one of us who said gays do not belong in the military was right ten years ago, and we’re still right today." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... homosexual rape is, just as we predicted, a serious problem in the American military since the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.
The Department of Defense just released its biannual report on sexual assault in the military, and the numbers are horrendous for heterosexual men who are forced into close quarters with men who turn out to be homosexual predators.
In the last two years, 7,500 men - at a minimum - were victims of sexual assault, a number 38% higher than just two years ago. Lest you think my column title is exaggerated, Yahoo News, not exactly a member of the vast rightwing conspiracy, headlined a story this way: The hidden tragedy of male sexual abuse in the military.
This number - 7,500 - is almost certainly too low by a factor of five.
According to the DOD, male victims only file reports of assault 18% of the time, even though they represent a shocking 42% of the victims of sexual assault in our military.
If the DOD is right, the total number of males who are victims of homosexual sexual aggression is closer to 40,000. Even in our darkest imaginations, we in the pro-family community had no idea things were going to get this bad this quickly.
Homosexuals have been allowed to serve openly in the U.S. military since the disastrously misguided repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell in late 2010. President Obama was able to ram the repeal through just under the wire because the Democrats temporarily held both houses of Congress, a situation that would change with the election in the fall of 2010. Elections have consequences, and open homosexuality in the military was one of the unfortunate consequences of naïve voters placing regressives in office.
One of the complaints many of us had at the time, and one of our reasons for opposing open homosexual service, had to do with the numerous pathologies associated with homosexuality. One of them is rampant promiscuity.
Psychology Today (note: not a part of the vast right-wing conspiracy) said in 2010 that one of the features of homosexuality is “the quantity of homosexual men’s preferences, as compared to those of homosexual women. Homosexual men are famously promiscuous, a fact that became well-known with the onset of AIDs, when studies of gay men who were HIV positive revealed average numbers of partners in the hundreds.”
...The human cost of homosexuality in the military is devastating, not to mention the military cost to unit morale, retention, and recruitment. Our first commander-in-chief, George Washington, understood all this and literally drummed homosexuals out of his Continental Army.
Bottom line: every single one of us who said gays do not belong in the military was right ten years ago, and we’re still right today.onenewsnow.com/perspectives/bryan-fischer/2020/01/09/eye-opening-rape-report-exposes-stomach-twisting-stats
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by davidsf on Jan 13, 2020 7:48:00 GMT -8
My sense is that for the vast majority, we are as we are wired, and to expect someone to overcome the conflict of being something they really aren't, is a setup for failure. In other words, it's easy for me to sit in judgement of another who doesn't conform to what 95% of the rest are. Fact is, I've seen kids who I knew were "different" at the same age you've mentioned, and wasn't very surprised to learn they came out as being gay. I can't really imagine what that must be like for a 6 year old to have to go through. I get the school yard bullying stuff. Most everyone has been bullied at one point or another. But I imagine for you and other kids, it must've reached the point of being unbearable. Not many here would be able to understand the experience of having a weight like that finally lifted when you came out and said, this is who I am...deal with it...because I sure as hell have. I see a combination of some level of genetic predisposition, possibly something chemical or physical, but combined with events and/or home life situations that lead to the same-sex attraction. in Scripture, that is referred to as “temptation” and every one of us Christian and non-Christian, is tempted, albeit towards different sin, but temptation is not sin... ENGAGING in the behavior, whether that be homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, lying, hatred, pride... or any of the others. No sin is greater nor worse in God’s eyes than any other: From His perspective, ALL sin separates us from Him. We each have one or two specific sins that are more of a draw to us than the others, and the demons assigned to us know what they are. Most of us get pretty defensive when someone tells us our particular “preferred” sin should be resisted. Homosexuals, in particular, have been very successful at reinterpreting their “preferred” sin as “normal,” even to the extent, now, of prosecuting those who stand against them. But the anger and outrage they show those who do not accept their sin as “normal” or “moral” doesn’t alter the fact that it is sin.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jan 13, 2020 8:02:37 GMT -8
Wouldn't that mean that gays who were intimate, would by definition be "sinners"?
Imagine God saying...hey, sorry we got your wiring wrong. But if you enjoy intimacy like the rest of the ones we got right, you'll be living in sin,and subject to eternal damnation.
I just don't see God piling on like that.
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Post by captaintrips on Jan 13, 2020 8:26:50 GMT -8
Wouldn't that mean that gays who were intimate, would by definition be "sinners"? Imagine God saying...hey, sorry we got your wiring wrong. But if you enjoy intimacy like the rest of the ones we got right, you'll be living in sin,and subject to eternal damnation. I just don't see God piling on like that. We're all sinners, true. We're all supposed to turn away from sin, repent. Our thoughts & feelings about Gods judgement of us - all of us - are nice and all, but aren't relevant... our judgement has no effect on Gods judgement. The gravest sin committed by homosexuals I think is their attempts to rewrite and re-create scripture to fit into their " lifestyle" or make their " lifestyle" somehow work with Gods word. It does not, it CAN not. ... just a note, homosexuals aren't the only ones that do this... Gods judgement will be what it will be. I have no authority & make no claims as to what that will be for everyone, I can only take responsibility for myself.. as we all must do. It is people that wish to replace their own judgement with Gods that are ALWAYS the problem. Humans doing what they've always done : )
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jan 13, 2020 8:37:54 GMT -8
If we can put aside scripture for a minute, does it seem reasonable that God would deny intimacy to someone who really didn't do anything wrong by being wired differently?
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by davidsf on Jan 13, 2020 9:01:00 GMT -8
If we can put aside scripture for a minute, does it seem reasonable that God would deny intimacy to someone who really didn't do anything wrong by being wired differently? In my opinion, you are placing too much emphasis on “wiring.” let’s also put homosexuality aside for a moment: our nature AND our nurture pushes each of us towards all manner of individual sins. God didn’t mis-wire us, He simply allows the chemical processes involved in our being brought into the world to work as it works. And He allows the homes into which we are born to be as they are. (Side note, He can intercede, but does not usually do so...When He does, we call it a miracle). Our temptation to sin started way back in the Garden of Eden and continues to this day. Rather than interceding and simply preventing us from sinning, He allows us our free will, but He also provided a way to Salvation because He knows we sin, and He wants fellowship with us. i don’t know the chemistry or genetics involved: I know some who used LSD bore genetically mutated children. I don’t know if something like that occurs to “wire” us towards [name your sin]! or if something else accomplishes that, but whatever it is, God allows it as part of being human. God doesn’t punish us for how we are born. God ONLY punishes sin, and even that is something that occurs after death: While we live, regardless of what our life is like, His goal is always to bring us to Him <hard stop> IF, during our life, we do not turn to Him, through Jesus Christ, the only punishment is Hell (however one believes Hell to be). Throughout our lives, the bad we experience, INCLUDING being alone and without “intimacy,” is a consequence of our individual or collective behavior: “Individual,” for example, a guy who smokes and gets lung cancer, “collective,” for example, some guy gets road rage because some other guy cuts him off, loses control of his car, and plows into a group of innocents... it is all part of being human. Evil exists and impacts us all.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jan 13, 2020 9:11:50 GMT -8
If we can put aside scripture for a minute, does it seem reasonable that God would deny intimacy to someone who really didn't do anything wrong by being wired differently? In my opinion, you are placing too much emphasis on “wiring.” Assume for a minute I'm right about the wiring thing. Would what I contend be considered reasonable / fair / just? Sorry I made you gay, but intimacy just not in the cards for you either. Assuming you are correct that it is a choice to be gay, then yes, I'd agree with you.
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Post by captaintrips on Jan 13, 2020 9:14:20 GMT -8
If we can put aside scripture for a minute, does it seem reasonable that God would deny intimacy to someone who really didn't do anything wrong by being wired differently? There's no such thing as " wired differently." Put scripture aside, put God aside if it pleases you. Our species comes in two sexes; 1. male & 2. Female They are designed by nature - or God, whichever you prefer - to fit, to be complementary to each other. That some few want to get sexually active with the same sex, isn't a matter of wiring, it's a matter of mis-directed, uncontrolled urges. In many these urges are made STRONGER by the knowledge that these activities are " forbidden," or considered " wrong." Humans do all kinds of wacky things with their sexual urges, sex with animals, sex with immature humans who aren't developed enough, sex with the wrong sex, sex with inanimate objects, sex with dead bodies, sex while murdering, sex in public, sex.. ... etc etc etc.. ALL misguided, misdirected use of the design and purpose of this activity. The forbidden is a turn on to many, it just IS. BUT Just because we can do a thing, doesn't mean we should. Asking; ".. does it seem reasonable that God would deny intimacy to someone who really didn't do anything wrong by being wired differently?" Can be applied to any of the above examples. We can accept what Gods word says about these issues, or reject them if we wish. God gave us the freedom to choose. He DID mention consequences for our choices though.
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by davidsf on Jan 13, 2020 9:26:00 GMT -8
In my opinion, you are placing too much emphasis on “wiring.” Assume for a minute I'm right about the wiring thing. Would what I contend be considered reasonable / fair / just? Sorry I made you gay, but intimacy just not in the cards for you either. Assuming you are correct that it is a choice to be gay, then yes, I'd agree with you. First, I don’t exactly support that it IS a choice. Engaging the behavior is always a choice because there is no biological mandate to have sex: We choose TO do it, we choose NOT TO do it. But a predisposition towards this sin or that sin... the “temptation”... no, that’s not a choice (which is why God doesn’t punish us for being tempted). to your first question, would it be fair, I believe we are predisposed to assuming God’s behavior has to submit to man’s definition of those terms. I do not believe WE would consider it fair, but we are not God, so we don’t know what ELSE we are missing out on that could be the reason God seems “unfair.” For example, my first marriage ended when my wife of five years moved in with her boyfriend. I actually railed at God, TOLD Him that wasn’t fair when He could have prevented it. But I had no idea what the result would have been if she’d remained in my life. God knew, of course, because He knows everything, so rather than intercede, He allowed her to hurt me so devastatingly, THEN, He allowed me to to remain single for SEVENTEEN lonely, miserable years before I met my wife (and her daughter) and built our family. Side note: Because of what I went through with my first wife, I have been able to counsel many others going through or contemplating going through that same thing.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jan 13, 2020 9:36:07 GMT -8
I understand there are a lot of people who believe same-sex is entirely a choice, and not a function of a born predisposition (wired). I'm just not one of them, which is why we disagree on this issue.
Much like how I feel when I hear the "science is done" when referring to the coming ice age... global warming... climate change, I think this is a very complex issue. It's my intuition that tells me that no reasonable person would choose that if not predisposed so.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jan 13, 2020 10:03:47 GMT -8
I understand there are a lot of people who believe same-sex is entirely a choice, and not a function of a born predisposition (wired). I'm just not one of them, which is why we disagree on this issue. Much like how I feel when I hear the "science is done" when referring to the coming ice age... global warming... climate change, I think this is a very complex issue. It's my intuition that tells me that no reasonable person would choose that if not predisposed so. Did you read what I said? i do not believe homosexuals DO choose to be attracted to same sex. What I said was/is I don’t understand the predisposition towards same sex attraction. But I also said, no one... not heterosexual, not homosexual, no one ... has to have sex, so the behavior, separate and distinct from the attraction, is always a choice.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jan 13, 2020 10:18:00 GMT -8
I understand there are a lot of people who believe same-sex is entirely a choice, and not a function of a born predisposition (wired). I'm just not one of them, which is why we disagree on this issue. Much like how I feel when I hear the "science is done" when referring to the coming ice age... global warming... climate change, I think this is a very complex issue. It's my intuition that tells me that no reasonable person would choose that if not predisposed so. Did you read what I said? i do not believe homosexuals DO choose to be attracted to same sex. What I said was/is I don’t understand the predisposition towards same sex attraction. But I also said, no one... not heterosexual, not homosexual, no one ... has to have sex, so the behavior, separate and distinct from the attraction, is always a choice. I did. But I also think celibacy is counter to the natural instincts of all us animals. Because of this, I reject the notion that being celibate would be a requirement by design if you were attracted to the same sex.
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