davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 19, 2019 12:15:51 GMT -8
I have a sister-in-Law, I’ll call her “Dixie” for our purposes here (well, and because that’s her name).
She is a mouth-running, slandering, non-thinking, dyed-in-the-wool liberal, I’m sure you know the kind. Dixie does all those distractions and misdirections and manipulations you have been talking about. I also have a brother in law, Jim, who agrees with most of what I say.
The whole family gets together sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas and invariably, we talk politics. If Dixie and her husband are involved in those conversations (and, for pure entertainment, Jim and I do always try to include them) we are witness to all those tactics commonly seen from the liberal zealots.
Recently, I came to understand those are not strategies for debate. Dixie CANNOT debate logically or rationally, because she takes her talking points (as I suspect a lot of folks over at TOB do) from headlines... not even full articles, just headlines. Dixie cannot support her opinion because she doesn’t understand her opinion. So she bullies and manipulates and misdirects and changes subjects in place of cogent argument. She won’t respond to direct questions because she can’t. She won’t defend her statement because she can’t. She’s been led down a path by a media who believes itself “all that.”
By the way, Dixie not only unfriended Jim and I on Facebook, but she blocked us as well. I suppose she just got tired of expressing an unfounded opinion and facing my “why?”
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 19, 2019 13:09:22 GMT -8
This topic can be tricky as it flirts with bashing. That's not the intent as that can be accomplished to our hearts content on Twitter. Without being overly theatrical, some guys I knew as fairly level-headed, now have somewhat transformed ala the movie The Invasion. It's hard to believe how diametrically opposed we've become.
What I'm looking for is more along the lines of Why and not whether or not we agree with the ideology. Would prefer to focus on the 35+ crowd v. college age kids, but I'm thinking the foundation of the ideology is grounded in similar self-serving incentives.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Feb 19, 2019 15:51:20 GMT -8
This is a great topic which, yes, can easily devolve into self-congratulatory snark. I posted some months ago on TOB--after coming under attack from Al Koholik (sp?) for my Credo ut intelligam username--that, in the end, almost all political disputes ultimately come down to theological differences. These theological divides would include, among others, theist/atheist, Christian/non-Christian, and Catholic/Protestant, not to mention all the various subdivisions of each category.
Of course I am overgeneralizing here, but the modern Liberal mindset (which is really Leftist--not liberal in the classical sense or even the sense of a JFK) essentially rejects the Judeo-Christian vision of "my kingdom is not of this world" (and its accompanying morality) and has replaced it with a Gnostic vision of earthly salvation and the perfectibility of humanity via the coercive power of the State. SJW Christianity without Christ, if you will, which originated in America with the Social Gospel movement of the late 19th century, and which has advanced along with the growing secularization of Western world. Throw in postmodernist philosophy and the Political Correctness mantra of oppression and victimhood, and you get AOC, Jemele Hill, Beto O'Rourke, Cory Booker, and Samantha Bee as the apotheosis of Liberalism.
Hope that doesn't sound too esoteric; I will return to this theme later on. A bookend thread that I have been mulling over might be entitled "Why I Am a Conservative."
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 19, 2019 17:52:19 GMT -8
I can only respond to the “why?” from my interaction over the years with those of the liberal zealot persuasion, which is different from the liberal mindset (a la Kennedy, as Credo explained above).
From my SiL, to Parrot Paul to a zealot on the other political discussion board named “redrover” to someone like the Vile Pagan I remember ... not one of them is willing to carry on a reasoned argument. I used to think they were too stubborn to submit to our demands to “stick to the topic”. But more recently, It is my observation, they can’t (for reasons I related from my sister in law).
As to why they think that way, I have to say, at this point, it is more related to pride. Oh, sure, they just couldn’t believe Trump beat Clinton (frankly, I was pretty surprised too). But at this point, there is no clear explanation for why they cling so tenaciously to an unsupportable ideology like they do.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 19, 2019 21:31:45 GMT -8
Beyond your SIL, the others you referred to from the other board seem like reasonably educated people. Are they really that insecure that they can't fathom the notion they MIGHT be wrong...about anything? I could understand if it were one or two of them that were just headstrong types. But I'm finding it's pretty much all of them.
Contrast that with this current bunch here. We've got 20+ topics, and we're clearly not all nodding our heads in agreement with each other. But as MDDad mentioned, we seem to be capable of listening to a different perspective than our own, and have the confidence to be able to acknowledge we may not have the entire story. Never saw that from the liberals on the other board, or from what I'm reading on Twitter. Instead, there's this incredible smugness that I can't figure out where it comes from.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 20, 2019 7:48:00 GMT -8
Beyond your SIL, the others you referred to from the other board seem like reasonably educated people. Are they really that insecure that they can't fathom the notion they MIGHT be wrong...about anything? I could understand if it were one or two of them that were just headstrong types. But I'm finding it's pretty much all of them. Contrast that with this current bunch here. We've got 20+ topics, and we're clearly not all nodding our heads in agreement with each other. But as MDDad mentioned, we seem to be capable of listening to a different perspective than our own, and have the confidence to be able to acknowledge we may not have the entire story. Never saw that from the liberals on the other board, or from what I'm reading on Twitter. Instead, there's this incredible smugness that I can't figure out where it comes from. Bearing in mind, although I have met personally with some of the liberal zealots on TOB, I can’t say I know them whereas I know my sister in law pretty well. from that view, then, it is my experience they all argue similarly. Obviously I can’t say with certainty their motivation is insecurity or pride, but I can say my SIL and her husband (who are insecure) use the same dodges and illogical rejoinders (etc,) as those folks on TOB use. Further, I will even include our favorite conservative female, Bev, in that indictment since she would do the same kinds of things. from my perspective, yes, their stubbornness and their insecurity (of their own opinions) are foundations to their inability to carry on reasoned, calm arguments. |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Feb 20, 2019 22:00:35 GMT -8
The following quote from Walter Lippmann helps explain why--as far back as the 1930's--the liberal mindset is always to increase the size and reach of government as the instrument to right the wrongs of humanity. The Green New Deal is just the logical conclusion of this process.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 21, 2019 6:42:50 GMT -8
I was going to start a new thread with this, but from one perspective, it does show how and why they think the way they do. From right before the election (October, 2016) some of you will recall a minor dust-up of the Clinton campaign manipulating the press (remember, at one point, the DNC lost four of its officers because of leaked strategy documents, Obama blamed on high level Russian hackers. A Blog called The Intercept had an article in which they discussed Clinton’s abuse of the press, in particular. Part of their lead in explains, The blog goes on to show:  I don’t think this manipulation of the press surprises anyone. But it is my observation it is still quite rabid today. I had an argument on Twitter with Mike, the guy yu know as Fordama: He said something about the crisis at the border is “suddenly a crisis.” He used the exact same phraseology as Nancy Pelosi used and the same phraseology as was parroted in the media outlets. When I confronted him with this, he tried all manner of misdirection and rationalization to convince me those were his own words, even attempting to put me on the defensive by claiming I’d called him a liar. While I generally find Mike willing to consider other viewpoints, he does have his moments. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 21, 2019 11:42:53 GMT -8
My biggest source of frustration was engaging with, or watching, time and again, so many debates end with what was tantamount to a penalty flag. What seemed to be clear points on the scoreboard would ALWAYS be wiped out by one of the big 3 flags... - False Equivalency
- Straw Man Argument
- or the classic Misdirection
With apologies to anyone offended, the inability to have an honest debate, and concede a point when faced with pretty indisputable arguments, is a clear lack of integrity in my book. I find this pervasive amongst liberals. My preference, and what I believe is healthy for our country, is an objective democratic party. I believe they used to be, and it's sorely again needed as a balance to extremes in both parties. |
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Post by ProfessorFate on Feb 21, 2019 14:27:30 GMT -8
Where are those centrist Democrats these days. How many of them are now Republicans; how many are now independents or 3rd party; and how many have just decided to sit out elections entirely?
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Feb 21, 2019 19:51:34 GMT -8
Leftist violence at UC Berkeley illustrates the intolerance liberals have for any view that dissents from their groupthink. To her credit, Berkeley Chancellor Carol Christ issued a statement today unambiguously condemning the attack. The perpetrator is easily identifiable and we can only hope he is arrested and expelled promptly.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Feb 21, 2019 22:34:28 GMT -8
Another twisted belief of the Left is that its own can do no wrong. Any and all tactics are justified and any sins are excused in order to maintain power and perpetuate the narrative of the Evil Conservative. For any of them to pay a price for their transgressions is resisted at all costs.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 22, 2019 11:06:44 GMT -8
I recall some years ago, probably in TOB, someone started a thread to discuss the inequitable treatment between republicans who got caught and Democrats who got caught. As I recall, it all started around the time Barney Franks boyfriend was running a brothel out of their apartment...
It might or might not be quite as accurate today, but at least historically, republicans get caught, they resign or get thrown out. Democrats get caught and the other democrats circle the wagons and defend him or her...
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 22, 2019 11:44:11 GMT -8
Somewhere along the line in the past couple years, I recall reading that fascism / nazis should be stopped by using any means available...including violence. I could be way off base here, but this stance seemed to be at least tacitly approved by the media and some politicians. Maxine Waters comes to mind.
It stands that if non-liberals are branded as some negative "ist", it becomes open game on them. That's what seems to be playing out anyway.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 25, 2019 8:29:03 GMT -8
In order to really get a handle on this subject, I think it's important to better understand what the differences are between moderate democrats, liberals, and leftists...and NOT just lump them all into the same bucket.
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