RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Jan 5, 2020 13:13:17 GMT -8
Dave's time travel thread got me thinking about the old idea of going back in time to kill Hitler as a baby, with the hope that it prevents WWII and the Holocaust. Since I am not a student of the history of that era, my question is would that have made a difference? Was it Hitler who made the Holocaust happen or was that a horror that was bound to occur no matter who was in charge?
As an offshoot of that, what if you used the time machine to take baby Adolph away from his parents to be raised by an Austrian family in the United States. What evidence is there that he would have still grown up to and done the horribly evil things he did as opposed to just being some asshole that lives down the street?
One step further; Use the time machine to take baby Adolph away from his parents to be raised by Jewish parents in Austria. How would have that changed his life and world history?
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jan 5, 2020 14:34:52 GMT -8
At its core, your questions boil down to the question of evil. Why does it exist IF there is a God who loves us?
Not to get overly theological here, but in my opinion, remove a single actor, like Adolf Hitler, from the scene and timing might change, but evil does not. Someone would fill that void and maybe do the same stuff (vis a vis, the Holocaust), but maybe not.
By asking those questions, also in my opinion, we seem to place more ... I’ll call it “power” to us human beings than I think we actually possess: We ponder the “what if’s” of moving this piece or replacing that piece as if it will have a significant impact.
So I will put it out there: Adolf Hitler (et al) were tools used by the ultimate force of evil to accomplish its ends. General Solmeini was a tool, Ayatollah Khomeini was a tool... evil exists in the world because we ceded title to creation to it.
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slk230
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Post by slk230 on Jan 5, 2020 14:57:25 GMT -8
At its core, your questions boil down to the question of evil. Why does it exist IF there is a God who loves us? 1 Not to get overly theological here, but in my opinion, remove a single actor, like Adolf Hitler, from the scene and timing might change, but evil does not. Someone would fill that void and maybe do the same stuff (vis a vis, the Holocaust), but maybe not. By asking those questions, also in my opinion, we seem to place more ... I’ll call it “power” to us human beings than I think we actually possess: We ponder the “what if’s” of moving this piece or replacing that piece as if it will have a significant impact. So I will put it out there: Adolf Hitler (et al) were tools used by the ultimate force of evil to accomplish its ends. General Solmeini was a tool, Ayatollah Khomeini was a tool... evil exists in the world because we ceded title to creation to it. I didn't hear that question Dave. Not that it is a bad question but it doesn't fit here. I find your notion that if Hitler didn't exist someone else would take his place as curious. People do evil things but evil in of itself does not exist except in the mind of men. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jan 5, 2020 15:31:19 GMT -8
You are free to believe anything that makes you feel better, or more powerful, or more in control... or whatever,
But you are wrong. Evil desires us to be ignorant of its existence.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Jan 5, 2020 16:18:30 GMT -8
I didn't mean the question to have religious or spiritual undertones, but I understand, based on your beliefs, why it does to you.
What I don't understand is how you can tell SLK he is wrong just because his beliefs are different than yours. I could understand you telling him you believe he is wrong, however it is factually incorrect to flat out say he is wrong since we are talking about reasonable beliefs. Neither your belief system nor Al's can be proven or disproven, hence why they are called belief systems. And please don't tell Al or myself that we are just ignorant of the knowledge that you have. I respect your beliefs, have no interest in trying to refute them, so please treat those beliefs of other reasonable people the same.
My initial question was aimed at those with a solid knowledge of the world in the first half of the 20th century. The other two scenarios are more of a mental exercise where beliefs about evil and how it exists and presents itself come into play.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jan 5, 2020 16:48:48 GMT -8
I didn't mean the question to have religious or spiritual undertones, but I understand, based on your beliefs, why it does to you. What I don't understand is how you can tell SLK he is wrong just because his beliefs are different than yours. I could understand you telling him you believe he is wrong, however it is factually incorrect to flat out say he is wrong since we are talking about reasonable beliefs. Neither your belief system nor Al's can be proven or disproven, hence why they are called belief systems. And please don't tell Al or myself that we are just ignorant of the knowledge that you have. I respect your beliefs, have no interest in trying to refute them, so please treat those beliefs of other reasonable people the same. My initial question was aimed at those with a solid knowledge of the world in the first half of the 20th century. The other two scenarios are more of a mental exercise where beliefs about evil and how it exists and presents itself come into play. To me “you are wrong” and “I believe you are wrong” say the same thing, particularly between Al and me who have been having this same discussion since we were both in OCConnect. that you don’t want to discuss it says a lot (to me) about why you object to how I phrase it to Al. so I’ll leave your question here alone. And Al knows me well enough to object for himself if he does object so, unless or until he does, I’ll leave that alone, too. |
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Jan 5, 2020 17:08:52 GMT -8
Hitler was a historical fluke. During the Weimar Republic there was a great deal of instability in Germany and it’s very possible that some other dictator would ultimately have emerged on top. But there’s no reason to assume that it would’ve been someone like Hitler with his excessive militarism, anti-Semitism, Uberman complex and desire for Liebensraum. He was an aberration, a unique combination of hatred and charisma. There may well have been another conflict with France and England over the Versailles treaty, but it likely would have been nothing like WW2.
As for your other questions, had he been raised by Austrians in the US, his psychiatric issues would have remained but probably not his feelings of betrayal and need for vengeance. Maybe an Austrian see-no-evil HSFB partisan like some we know.
Had he been raised by Jews he would have been a never Trump Democrat and probably an Antifa thug...............Luca
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Jan 5, 2020 22:29:26 GMT -8
Hitler was a historical fluke. During the Weimar Republic there was a great deal of instability in Germany and it’s very possible that some other dictator would ultimately have emerged on top. But there’s no reason to assume that it would’ve been someone like Hitler with his excessive militarism, anti-Semitism, Uberman complex and desire for Liebensraum. He was an aberration, a unique combination of hatred and charisma. There may well have been another conflict with France and England over the Versailles treaty, but it likely would have been nothing like WW2. I agree. However, I think you meant to say Lebensraum, which means "living room", or geography for Germans to occupy and expand. Liebensraum is "loving room" which I think probably refers to the boudoir, or a venue for some other bizarre fetish. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jan 6, 2020 7:20:44 GMT -8
If a charismatic person came to power at a time where his constituents were desparate, would he be capable of similar atrocities? I'd say yes to that.
But if Hitler himself were raised here in the US today, he'd probably just be a leftist telling us all how bad we have it, and he's the solution to our problems, and that problem would be personified as... The GOP.
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Jan 6, 2020 13:27:46 GMT -8
In a nation that has only known oppressive government and authoritarianism someone like a Hitler could arise under certain circumstances. Idi Amin Dada, Stalin and Mao weren't a whole lot better. But in a country with widespread education steeped in Western civilization with its comparatively liberal foundations I think it is now so unlikely as to border on the impossible.
Germany had always been more authoritarian than most of Western Europe, with its Prussian tradition, militarism and history of self-discipline. But even so, look at how it has addressed its role in World War II, accepting responsibility and even giving reparations. You didn't see any of that coming from Japan and you don't see a lot of Russian regret for having subjugated Eastern Europe.
I didn't know there was such a word as liebensraum. That must have given rise to a lot of sick puns in the early 1940s..................................Luca
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Jan 6, 2020 19:33:05 GMT -8
Dave's time travel thread got me thinking about the old idea of going back in time to kill Hitler as a baby, with the hope that it prevents WWII and the Holocaust. Since I am not a student of the history of that era, my question is would that have made a difference? Was it Hitler who made the Holocaust happen or was that a horror that was bound to occur no matter who was in charge? As an offshoot of that, what if you used the time machine to take baby Adolph away from his parents to be raised by an Austrian family in the United States. What evidence is there that he would have still grown up to and done the horribly evil things he did as opposed to just being some asshole that lives down the street? One step further; Use the time machine to take baby Adolph away from his parents to be raised by Jewish parents in Austria. How would have that changed his life and world history? This is the reason why only God--and not man--can know all of history, including foreknowledge of the evil misuse of free will. We might as well eliminate all people who we knew were going to commit murder, rape, etc. Mind you, this is not an apology for or defense of Hitler. It's simply that human beings were not made to be able to handle such knowledge. To kill baby Hitler would be to knowingly commit a moral evil in order to prevent a possibly (or even likely) greater moral evil, which is pure utilitarianism. While some may argue for the benefit of such an action, it's certainly not compatible with Christian moral principles. God knew what Hitler was going to do, yet his permissive will allowed it to happen. Same goes for all of our own sins. |
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Post by captaintrips on Jan 6, 2020 19:59:53 GMT -8
I didn't hear that question Dave. Not that it is a bad question but it doesn't fit here. I find your notion that if Hitler didn't exist someone else would take his place as curious. People do evil things but evil in of itself does not exist except in the mind of men. Evil does definitely exist. You're not the first to dismiss or deny that there is such a thing. Like many, myself included, you're likely to come around eventually and realize that yes, there is evil. As a general answer to the opening posts questions, I think if Hitler had been taken out of the picture - maybe never been born, died of pneumonia,.. whatever, maybe the events of that period would have been different - better - worse ? who knows ?? No matter, there will be nasty people doing nasty things to other people, all over the world for as long as there are people on this world. There are absolutely horrendous things happening beyond most of our imaginations to people somewhere right now ! Hitler was a lesson for the worlds people - though I wonder if they even heard it - to be very careful about listening to your " leaders".... or " authorities"... how many good & decent (Germans) went along with this mans ideas and followed them ? Answer; MANY This is one illustration of the power of evil. Masses of people can be easily seduced, by the right kind of speaker with the right kind of personality, or in the right circumstances during certain periods of cultural changes, to submit themselves in evil undertakings. Right here in America in 1973, we were educated by the " authorities" on the Supreme Court, that killing the most innocent humans to exist was a " right." Oh yes, evil definitely exists. Look at what we have done right here in our country ! Things have gone even more off the rails during the last decade or so.. look at our government. Look at our culture. We're a country at war with itself LOL Apologies for not addressing the backward time travel aspect of the question. Time goes in only one direction |
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slk230
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Post by slk230 on Jan 7, 2020 4:19:35 GMT -8
Evil does definitely exist. You're not the first to dismiss or deny that there is such a thing. Like many, myself included, you're likely to come around eventually and realize that yes, there is evil.As a general answer to the opening posts questions, I think if Hitler had been taken out of the picture - maybe never been born, died of pneumonia,.. whatever, maybe the events of that period would have been different - better - worse ? who knows ?? No matter, there will be nasty people doing nasty things to other people, all over the world for as long as there are people on this world. There are absolutely horrendous things happening beyond most of our imaginations to people somewhere right now ! Hitler was a lesson for the worlds people - though I wonder if they even heard it - to be very careful about listening to your " leaders".... or " authorities"... how many good & decent (Germans) went along with this mans ideas and followed them ? Answer; MANY This is one illustration of the power of evil. Masses of people can be easily seduced, by the right kind of speaker with the right kind of personality, or in the right circumstances during certain periods of cultural changes, to submit themselves in evil undertakings. Right here in America in 1973, we were educated by the " authorities" on the Supreme Court, that killing the most innocent humans to exist was a " right." Oh yes, evil definitely exists. Look at what we have done right here in our country ! Things have gone even more off the rails during the last decade or so.. look at our government. Look at our culture. We're a country at war with itself LOL Apologies for not addressing the backward time travel aspect of the question. Time goes in only one direction=================================================================================== There are evil deeds but evil as an entity? Really? |
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slk230
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Post by slk230 on Jan 7, 2020 4:21:37 GMT -8
Nature, nurture or evil possession? I will stay with the first 2.
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Post by vilepagan on Jan 7, 2020 13:57:19 GMT -8
Nature, nurture or evil possession? I will stay with the first 2. Then there's the fact that the definition of "evil" changes over time and depends on your location... Problems can arise when people take it upon themselves to narrowly define what's good and evil...especially when they do it for others. |
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