RSM789
Eminence Grise
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Evil
Jan 9, 2020 16:58:57 GMT -8
Post by RSM789 on Jan 9, 2020 16:58:57 GMT -8
I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive, it is not meant that way. By chance, were there any drugs being administered to your son during the time you mentioned?
I ask because while I believe evil is a choice, I also acknowledge there are substances that you can be on that make that decision either easier to make, or clouds your normal mind. I wonder if that had any effect on him in that situation.
As for the guys that jumped him, I will gladly join you in handing out justice if the situation demands it. Not that you need help, I just want you to know that you aren't the only one who feels such a solution is called for & legitimate when dealing with folks like that.
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Bick
Administrator 
Posts: 6,900
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Evil
Jan 9, 2020 17:22:12 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by Bick on Jan 9, 2020 17:22:12 GMT -8
Thanks for the "back up", but this was a few years ago, and I think I want to stay out of the revenge business.
No worries about being insensitive. I'm a big boy and wouldn't put it out there if I couldn't handle the heat.
There was some meds going thru the IV...mainly antibiotics. Low dosages of sedative...until the episode...then it was upped to get him under control.
I thought of the drug possibility, but none was detected in his tox screen.
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Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
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Evil
Jan 9, 2020 17:28:46 GMT -8
Credo likes this
Post by Luca on Jan 9, 2020 17:28:46 GMT -8
How is your son doing, Bick? Did he have any residual problems?
I remember several years ago on TOB - when people could still discuss an issue and disagree without getting in a rage about it - there was a discussion about evil itself. One group was trying to define what absolute evil was, and the other group was arguing that evil did not actually exist, that it was merely an intellectual construct projected onto the real world without any actual validity.
It was the kind of discussion you'd have in a philosophy 101 class as a freshman in college, where everyone's convinced he's an intellectual. Whereas the classic thinkers, like Aristotle, would ask "What is the nature of evil?", the post classical thinkers - maybe like Nietzsche - would claim that nothing, no act in itself is evil and that moral judgments are so arbitrary that they are imaginary. That is, there is no evil, only what we arbitrarily decide to call evil.
They both had points. Things that are completely innocuous today in the West would have been considered scandalous and evil in the previous century. But it seems a bit of a stretch to conclude that barbarism, mass murder, genocide and such are not the personification of objective evil.
But that's what the premises of the post classical thinkers led them to conclude. Bertrand Russel once said
"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.".............................Luca
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
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Evil
Jan 9, 2020 18:07:06 GMT -8
Post by davidsf on Jan 9, 2020 18:07:06 GMT -8
Here's the thing I was hoping for some clarity on...it was around the time he coded that I think he was talking to God. My interpretation of that would be along the lines of his spirit / soul left his body, and into it comes who I met face to face. I'm telling you...that was not my boy I was facing. I don’t speak for God, so I might be out in left field here, but the spirit doesn’t leave our body until we die and,”long tunnel with a light at the end” anecdotes notwithstanding, the Bible says “it is given to man once to die and, after this, the Judgement” so I’m not particularly bought into that whole “God sent me back” deal. that said, however, a demon can indwell a person, along with their spirit OR demons can impact their victim in such a way as you described without actually in dwelling them. Remember, demons can only be in one place at a time, so IF they have a number of people to influence, they can’t do so if they are inhabiting one person... From what you related, I agree it was not your boy you confronted, but whether it was a demonic “possession” or a demonic “oppression, I can’t say. I will say, through Jesus Christ, we each have authority over the demons and they know it... but they will try to convince you (or me or anyone) they don’t have to do what we say ... a sticking point however is always, the person being afflicted is the one who 1) Wants to be rid of it and 2) Addresses it in the name and authority if Christ. |
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Bick
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Evil
Jan 9, 2020 18:21:29 GMT -8
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Post by Bick on Jan 9, 2020 18:21:29 GMT -8
He's good Luca... Thanks.
You know Dave, I don't know either about the "God sent me back" thing.
But it sure seems very coincidental that while he and God are chatting it up (if you put our approx timelines together), I'm dealing with that other thing, just before he codes.
As you've probably figured out by now, I don't know the Bible well enough to feign an intelligent conversation about it to support or deny what was really happening from a scripture perspective.
But wow...it sure felt like I got touched by both good and evil. I can see how succumbing to real evil is possible.
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
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Evil
Jan 9, 2020 20:30:42 GMT -8
Post by Credo on Jan 9, 2020 20:30:42 GMT -8
Evil as a concept only makes sense in light of God and the rejection of His moral law. Strictly speaking, an atheist could not even "believe" that evil exists since evil must be defined in opposition to goodness and virtue--which themselves require God as their source. No God, no morality, no good and and evil.
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Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
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Evil
Jan 9, 2020 21:04:15 GMT -8
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Post by Bick on Jan 9, 2020 21:04:15 GMT -8
How is your son doing, Bick? Did he have any residual problems? I remember several years ago on TOB - when people could still discuss an issue and disagree without getting in a rage about it - there was a discussion about evil itself. One group was trying to define what absolute evil was, and the other group was arguing that evil did not actually exist, that it was merely an intellectual construct projected onto the real world without any actual validity. It was the kind of discussion you'd have in a philosophy 101 class as a freshman in college, where everyone's convinced he's an intellectual. Whereas the classic thinkers, like Aristotle, would ask " What is the nature of evil?", the post classical thinkers - maybe like Nietzsche - would claim that nothing, no act in itself is evil and that moral judgments are so arbitrary that they are imaginary. That is, there is no evil, only what we arbitrarily decide to call evil. They both had points. Things that are completely innocuous today in the West would have been considered scandalous and evil in the previous century. But it seems a bit of a stretch to conclude that barbarism, mass murder, genocide and such are not the personification of objective evil. But that's what the premises of the post classical thinkers led them to conclude. Bertrand Russel once said "The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.".............................Luca Where do you stand on the good and evil question? My dad was an MD, and as you can imagine, science led the way for pretty much every situation at our dinner table. Do you believe there are real deal demons? Or is it just a manifestation? |
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
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Evil
Jan 10, 2020 7:20:00 GMT -8
Post by davidsf on Jan 10, 2020 7:20:00 GMT -8
He's good Luca... Thanks. You know Dave, I don't know either about the "God sent me back" thing. But it sure seems very coincidental that while he and God are chatting it up (if you put our approx timelines together), I'm dealing with that other thing, just before he codes. As you've probably figured out by now, I don't know the Bible well enough to feign an intelligent conversation about it to support or deny what was really happening from a scripture perspective. But wow...it sure felt like I got touched by both good and evil. I can see how succumbing to real evil is possible. From your recounting, I do not doubt you WERE touched by both... demonic activity is a separate entity from either you or your son. in everyday life, we don’t usually experience demons in the way you describe, but they’re there... always trying to influence us away from God. Similarly, you and your son were going about the challenges of that situation when that demon chose to reveal himself aggressively and God gave you what you needed in that moment to face it down, all while you and your son were dealing with the situation of him getting assaulted. BTW, God doesn’t always intervene like you described. When He does, we call that a miracle. |
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Luca
Master Statesman
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Evil
Jan 10, 2020 12:54:03 GMT -8
Post by Luca on Jan 10, 2020 12:54:03 GMT -8
Evil as a concept only makes sense in light of God and the rejection of His moral law. Strictly speaking, an atheist could not even "believe" that evil exists since evil must be defined in opposition to goodness and virtue--which themselves require God as their source. No God, no morality, no good and and evil. I wouldn’t agree with that, Credo. Specifically, I don’t believe that you must believe in God to possess a sense of or believe in objective goodness and virtue or its opposite. Much of the world, especially in Western Europe, is populated by a good number of atheists. I think it is a bit demeaning to say of them that they cannot have a sense of good versus evil. What difference I do see is that if you do believe in God and that God is the source in defining good versus evil, then you have a logical line of reasoning to conclude that evil exists and can be defined. An atheist, conversely, simply has to reason a posteriori to conclude that there is good or evil and to define it. This can always be attacked as being a subjective conclusion (as the Nietzscheans might say), but I don’t think that the moral impulse that atheists have is any less fundamental than that of the theists. To answer your question, Bick, I don’t believe there are demons, if by that you mean a non-material conscious presence that influences human behavior. (There is a difference between denying that something exists versus not being convinced that it does. I'm simply not convinced). But I do think there is an objective evil behavior that virtually all human beings would label as such, eg, random murder, genocide, etc. It is true that there are some who do not believe those acts are intrinsically evil, but I believe that this simply indicates there is something significantly wrong with those people rather than being evidence that objective evil does not exist. A blind man can insist that there is no mountain on the horizon, but that doesntt mean it’s not there. The problem lies with he who is blind………………………………..Luca |
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
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Evil
Jan 10, 2020 13:24:54 GMT -8
Post by Credo on Jan 10, 2020 13:24:54 GMT -8
Evil as a concept only makes sense in light of God and the rejection of His moral law. Strictly speaking, an atheist could not even "believe" that evil exists since evil must be defined in opposition to goodness and virtue--which themselves require God as their source. No God, no morality, no good and and evil. I wouldn’t agree with that, Credo. Specifically, I don’t believe that you must believe in God to possess a sense of or believe in objective goodness and virtue or its opposite. Much of the world, especially in Western Europe, is populated by a good number of atheists. I think it is a bit demeaning to say of them that they cannot have a sense of good versus evil. What difference I do see is that if you do believe in God and that God is the source in defining good versus evil, then you have a logical line of reasoning to conclude that evil exists and can be defined. An atheist, conversely, simply has to reason a posteriori to conclude that there is good or evil and to define it. This can always be attacked as being a subjective conclusion (as the Nietzscheans might say), but I don’t think that the moral impulse that atheists have is any less fundamental than that of the theists. To answer your question, Bick, I don’t believe there are demons, if by that you mean a non-material conscious presence that influences human behavior. (There is a difference between denying that something exists versus not being convinced that it does. I'm simply not convinced). But I do think there is an objective evil behavior that virtually all human beings would label as such, eg, random murder, genocide, etc. It is true that there are some who do not believe those acts are intrinsically evil, but I believe that this simply indicates there is something significantly wrong with those people rather than being evidence that objective evil does not exist. A blind man can insist that there is no mountain on the horizon, but that doesntt mean it’s not there. The problem lies with he who is blind………………………………..Luca Perhaps I explained myself poorly. I am not implying that an atheist cannot have a sense of good and evil. The moral impulses of atheists are no less real than theists because all human beings share the same nature and thus have an innate sense of the Natural Law. What I am arguing (as does the video with Peter Kreeft that I originally posted) is that anyone who acknowledges or believes in good and evil is necessarily implying the existence of God, whether they know or it or not. This is the argument for the existence of God based on the existence of good and evil. Only God can be the source of objective moral value--any other source of morality is merely personal opinion or social consensus. |
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
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Evil
Jan 10, 2020 13:47:33 GMT -8
Post by MDDad on Jan 10, 2020 13:47:33 GMT -8
This is the argument for the existence of God based on the existence of good and evil. Only God can be the source of objective moral value--any other source of morality is merely personal opinion or social consensus. I agree, and I've stated much the same at least twice in the past. This is also a position that Dennis Prager has repeated several times on his radio show. The concepts of good and evil stem from a belief in a Supreme Being from whom those values come. The belief in good and evil goes hand in hand with the belief in an afterlife and the prospects of eternal rewards or punishments. As Credo and Prager both say, without a God, good and evil are personal or societal values with no real basis other than consensus. They are social constructs, similar to the current 112 genders we have constructed for men and women |
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Evil
Jan 10, 2020 13:49:46 GMT -8
Post by vilepagan on Jan 10, 2020 13:49:46 GMT -8
You're just making the same claim in a roundabout way. You're claiming that morality can't exist without God and that's preposterous.
But all morality does come from personal opinion or societal consensus. That can be shown by the fact that "morals" change over time and by location. You can find many biblical references to slavery and how it's approved of by God, but we consider it to be an evil practice today. Many punishments mentioned in the Bible would also be considered barbaric and evil today, but back then not so much.
Morals change with the society that holds those moral beliefs, and they always have.
On a side note, there's an excellent book to read about demons and the belief in such things...The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan.
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Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
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Evil
Jan 10, 2020 14:47:50 GMT -8
Post by Luca on Jan 10, 2020 14:47:50 GMT -8
..... anyone who acknowledges or believes in good and evil is necessarily implying the existence of God, whether they know or it or not. This is the argument for the existence of God based on the existence of good and evil. Only God can be the source of objective moral value--any other source of morality is merely personal opinion or social consensus. I understand that point. I just don’t agree with it. I don’t see how it necessarily follows that a human consensus regarding good or evil demonstrates the existence of God any more than, say, the belief in the existence of beauty and ugliness does. I imagine that we’d all agree that some things are beautiful and that some things are ugly, but this common consensus doesn’t demonstrate the existence of God. Similarly, we would all agree that the universe is large and that the distance between a hydrogen nucleus and its nearest electron is small. This doesn’t indicate that there must be a God who endows us all with the concepts of big and small, it’s simply a commonsense conclusion we draw using reason and observation We cannot devise a mathematical formula to determine what is good/evil or beautiful/ugly, but we do reach these same conclusions. To me this simply indicates that there are behaviors that are intrinsically evil and that we all have the ability to recognize them. While some moral judgments on good/evil are merely subjective, there are some that would have been considered evil a thousand years ago and will be considered evil a thousand years in the future. I believe there is objective evil and it’s not a case of 7 billion of us reaching the same conclusions by chance. But I don’t follow the logic that this necessarily implies the existence of God. . …………………………Luca |
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
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Evil
Jan 10, 2020 14:52:19 GMT -8
Post by davidsf on Jan 10, 2020 14:52:19 GMT -8
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Evil
Jan 10, 2020 15:15:56 GMT -8
Post by RSM789 on Jan 10, 2020 15:15:56 GMT -8
An aside to this discussion, I would suggest that a large percentage, if not an outright majority, of people who say they are atheist actually fall under the agnostic category. They don't go to church, they don't formally pray, but they also don't outright say definitively that there is no God. They have no faith in formal religions and don't want to be bothered with the minutia involved in the arguments between theists & atheists, but they logically know that the existence of a Supreme Being can't be disproved. So they live their lives in a way that often follows Judaeo-Christian history as far as morality and are people who are a plus to their communities.
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