RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Feb 16, 2020 12:15:55 GMT -8
...common sense alone is sufficient to see the inevitable train-wreck. Not necessarily. There are many examples of larger communal families that produce successful, well-adjusted offspring. Look at the parents of Osama bin Laden, for example. Or the Manson family. As Donny Osmond told us "One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, girl". I have seen more trainwrecked kids from single child homes than ones with 4 - 8 kids (the latter being the typical Catholic family size in the 60's thru 80's). Something about growing up with a couple of siblings of each sex that prepares you for marriage, work and all of the other places where you have to interact with people and the world doesn't revolve around you. Now, with the large communal families you refer to, we are getting into statistics. If bin Laden was the only one of those 52 kids who got into to trouble, then that would be on him and not the family. If you do most anything right 51 out of 52 times, than that 52nd would surely be considered an anomaly. As for Manson, his kids either committed suicide or have lived unremarkable lives. The suicides are explained more by who the father was, not the family size, while the remaining kids are better people than Johnny Newport Beach, the only child who was raised as the second coming by his parents and now blows his trust fund on drugs, strippers and lawyers bailing him out of DUI's. Most likely you have never heard of successful, well adjusted offspring of larger multi-parent families because those successful well adjusted offspring don't do things that result in infamy.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 16, 2020 12:48:15 GMT -8
So...
How can the Utah legislature decriminalize polygamy?
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Feb 16, 2020 22:38:18 GMT -8
So... How can the Utah legislature decriminalize polygamy? I guess the same way Colorado first decriminalized recreational marijuana.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Feb 16, 2020 23:38:25 GMT -8
This is simply the logical outworking of the decades-long effort to normalize same-sex relations and then redefine marriage to accommodate the concept of "marriage-as-consent." Eventually polygamy will have its own SCOTUS case somewhere down the road.... Tuba:In American jurisprudence the only definition of marriage: a legal contract which establishes a special kind of kinship-- spousal-- where none existed before. That hasn't changed since same-gender marriages and families have been legally enfranchised. For the record: marrying many spouses at the same time is a straight-marriage tradition that has "defined" marriage for, at least, two millennia eh? Nothing new to the planet -- or America-- since same-gender marriages have been enfranchised; it's Biblical for chrissake. Can't blame polygamous marriages on the Gays, Sport; they're exclusively the inspiration of a straight kink. So, I think the a more logical question to ask is: if straight marriage, why not polygamy? First of all, welcome aboard, Tuba. I hope you find this forum as enjoyable as the rest of us have for the past year. I think perhaps my intent has been misunderstood, which is probably my fault for not being more clear in my original post. I am not "blaming the gays" for this most recent onward march of what Robert George referred to as "social liberalism." The undermining of marriage as understood throughout Western Civilization for at least the last 2,000 years goes back to the increasing acceptance of divorce (prohibited by Christ in Matthew 19:3-9) and the introduction of contraception in the 1960's. Yes, "straights" made a fine mess of marriage all by themselves--which was then further exploited by the LGBTQ lobby and its supporters (mostly consisting of heterosexuals) to redefine marriage as understood as mere "consent" between two people (regardless of gender) in order to justify the legalizing of so-called same-sex marriage. Once marriage was redefined as consisting of mere consent, it was only a matter of time before polygamy would come knocking at the door, since any ground for denying a person a second wife or husband has been removed by the Obergefell decision. As long as the three (or more) who are involved are freely consenting, on what principle then can such an arrangement be opposed? To say, however, that polygamy is "Biblical," is like saying that adultery and murder are "Biblical." Simply because something occurred in the Bible does not establish God's sanctioning of such a thing. The most clear Scriptural text on the nature of marriage is this: The LORD God said: It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suited to him.
So the LORD God formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each living creature was then its name.
The man gave names to all the tame animals, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be a helper suited to the man.
So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.
The LORD God then built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman. When he brought her to the man, the man said:
“This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh;
This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of man this one has been taken.”
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body. (Genesis 2:18-24) This last verse above is repeated by Jesus himself in Matthew 19:5 and Paul in Ephesians 5:31. You will not find any place in the Bible where God commands or blesses polygamy. We do find certain figures in the Old Testament who had multiple wives or consorts by which they bore children, most notably Abraham, Jacob, David, and Solomon. What can be learned, however, from all these situations is that jealousy, rivalry, war, and murder were the direct results of such actions. Those cases were meant to be instructive as to what not to do, and you will not find any accepted tradition of polygamy in either Judaism (since at least before the time of Christ) or Christianity. The New Testament and 2,000 years of Christian history clearly understand marriage to be the permanent union of one man and one woman. The practice of polygamy in America came through Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism--which is not Christian. It is a heresy of Christianity, as it denies the Trinity and purports to have received a new and authoritative revelation from God outside of the Bible.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 17, 2020 7:20:00 GMT -8
Agree with Credo: That something is IN the Bible, doesn’t mean God blesses it.
That is a unique aspect of the Bible: God shows His people, warts and all. Adultery, murder, psychotic hatred... it’s all in there because God intends His Word to remind us He loves us despite our sin... and He can save us despite our sin, as well, if we repent and turn to Him.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 17, 2020 7:33:46 GMT -8
Credo... Very well put from a biblical perspective. And to your point (I think), nothing seems to be in the way of legally denying a polygamous marriage.
Now the question becomes, should states be allowed to make the decision about its acceptability for their citizens? I'd say YES.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 17, 2020 7:40:35 GMT -8
Credo... Very well put from a biblical perspective. And to your point (I think), nothing seems to be in the way of legally denying a polygamous marriage. Now the question becomes, should states be allowed to make the decision about its acceptability for their citizens? I'd say YES. It depends: Does the Constitution reserve the responsibility to the Federal Government? then, yes.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 17, 2020 7:46:48 GMT -8
Given the constitution is silent on the issue of marriage, I believe it, like all other matters it is silent on, is a state matter.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Feb 17, 2020 8:07:53 GMT -8
What doesn't make sense is if it is legal to impregnate multiple women at the same time and marry none of them (as some professional sports stars have done), why is it illegal to do the same thing but then take the responsible step of committing to those same women?
Again, I wouldn't call it marriage, because that has traditionally been 1 man & 1 woman, but whose business is it if people want to and willingly enter a commitment that involves more than 2 people?
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 17, 2020 8:56:37 GMT -8
Furthermore, if marriage is defined as broadly as a legal contract between two adults capable of consent (i.e they are not minors or mentally ill), then that would logically seem to condone cousins marrying cousins, fathers marrying daughters, brothers marrying sisters, etc. Would it not?
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 17, 2020 9:40:02 GMT -8
Yes it would,and after watching Deliverance, it clearly did.
I suppose if I'm wearing the black robe, I'd still leave it to the people to decide by ballot, but with the caveat of some type of financial disincentive so as the offspring not be dependent on the state to support them.
As a practical matter, I don't see many, if any, states wanting it.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 17, 2020 10:06:25 GMT -8
...but with the caveat of some type of financial disincentive so as the offspring not be dependent on the state to support them. Can you explain what you mean by this?
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 17, 2020 10:14:42 GMT -8
Hi risk pregnancies (inbreeding specifically) lead to birth defects. If you engage in this, you will be ineligible for welfare benefits, and will have to stick to hunting squirrel to eat.
Something a little more polished than that, but same general idea.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 17, 2020 10:29:30 GMT -8
If the possibility of passing on a transmittable or genetic disease to newborns is to be met with financial disincentives, then shouldn't potential parents with HIV, hepatitis, hemophilia, Down Syndrome, sickle-cell anemia or any of a host of other diseases that can be passed on to a newborn also have those disincentives applied to them?
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 17, 2020 10:36:18 GMT -8
If it's known in advance, I'd say yes, depending on the likelihood.
I'll admit there's some harsh Darwinism baked into my position, and there's bound to be some outrage.
But if you're about to get married to cousin Elly, you should be forewarned that you won't be getting The Welfare if you have any kids.
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