Bick
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Post by Bick on Mar 27, 2020 5:00:47 GMT -8
I wondered where separation of church and state emanated. I had always thought it was contained with the body of the constitution somewhere.
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Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,901
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Post by Bick on Mar 27, 2020 5:30:07 GMT -8
This is an interesting opinion piece that refutes and seems reasonable enough. The essence is that while there are references to God throughout, that doesn't necessarily mean that God has a role in the governance. The author argues: "The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution says that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” The function and intent of this amendment have been translated as “separation between church and state” by Thomas Jefferson." My takeaway from this is, while the constitution was not founded upon any specific religion, and the Founders made that clear in my mind, the idea of the absence of Christian principles hasn't been proven. www.collegiatetimes.com/opinion/founding-fathers-fought-for-separation-for-church-and-state/article_0012e866-fa8a-11e5-a86c-ab6b290d558f.html |
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by Credo on Mar 27, 2020 21:31:09 GMT -8
This is an interesting opinion piece that refutes and seems reasonable enough. The essence is that while there are references to God throughout, that doesn't necessarily mean that God has a role in the governance. The author argues: "The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution says that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” The function and intent of this amendment have been translated as “separation between church and state” by Thomas Jefferson." My takeaway from this is, while the constitution was not founded upon any specific religion, and the Founders made that clear in my mind, the idea of the absence of Christian principles hasn't been proven. www.collegiatetimes.com/opinion/founding-fathers-fought-for-separation-for-church-and-state/article_0012e866-fa8a-11e5-a86c-ab6b290d558f.htmlWith all due respect--and perhaps this is the fault of the article you cited--how could God even have a "role" in the "governance" on the nation--even if a nation explicitly desired that, nevermind a constitutional republic like ours? Only human beings can govern the state. The article you cited looks like it comes from a student newspaper at Virginia Tech that, while it contains some useful information, also betrays some confusion (not dissimilar to the views put forth by Tuba) in its desire to "prove" that the Founders envisioned no place for God in the government they created. You can have a government instituted by Christians--and who are influenced by Christian values in that effort--who at the same time decided that the roles of church and state need to be kept separate. These are not mutually exclusive ideas. Simply because the government is not a theocracy does not mean it is therefore agnostic or anti-theistic. Simply because the government isn't "run by God" (an impossibility, in any case) doesn't mean that the influence of God (on the people and their representatives) is somehow prohibited. While the doctrine of "Separation of Church and State" rules out a theocratic government (a good thing, IMO) or an officially established Church of the USA (another good thing), it emphatically does not mean (as the "secularist" camp would assert) that faith and/or religious ideas and principles have no place in public life. That has never been the case in America--and will never be the case. The following short (3:00) video clip, by Professor Robert George of Princeton, is an excellent summary of the history and--often misunderstood--meaning of "Separation of Church and State" and of the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment. |
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Post by vilepagan on Mar 28, 2020 3:08:07 GMT -8
What proper place do you think religion has in "public life"?
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Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,901
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Post by Bick on Mar 28, 2020 5:27:09 GMT -8
With all due respect--and perhaps this is the fault of the article you cited--how could God even have a "role" in the "governance" on the nation--even if a nation explicitly desired that, nevermind a constitutional republic like ours? Only human beings can govern the state. The article you cited looks like it comes from a student newspaper at Virginia Tech that, while it contains some useful information, also betrays some confusion (not dissimilar to the views put forth by Tuba) in its desire to "prove" that the Founders envisioned no place for God in the government they created. You can have a government instituted by Christians--and who are influenced by Christian values in that effort--who at the same time decided that the roles of church and state need to be kept separate. These are not mutually exclusive ideas. Simply because the government is not a theocracy does not mean it is therefore agnostic or anti-theistic. Simply because the government isn't "run by God" (an impossibility, in any case) doesn't mean that the influence of God (on the people and their representatives) is somehow prohibited. While the doctrine of "Separation of Church and State" rules out a theocratic government (a good thing, IMO) or an officially established Church of the USA (another good thing), it emphatically does not mean (as the "secularist" camp would assert) that faith and/or religious ideas and principles have no place in public life. That has never been the case in America--and will never be the case. The following short (3:00) video clip, by Professor Robert George of Princeton, is an excellent summary of the history and--often misunderstood--meaning of "Separation of Church and State" and of the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment. I think the gray area is when Christian principles align with non Christian principles, or simply put, good v evil. It was interesting to read that Jefferson would be considered by other Founders as a heretic because he was a Unitarian, and focused his beliefs on morality more so than anything particularly Christian. Maybe our approach should be to find agreement with the morality aspect of our founding principles that is parallel to non Christian faith, and then evaluate the Christian principles that differ. |
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