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Post by vilepagan on Jul 8, 2020 12:50:19 GMT -8
It's called "grace", vile. I know what it's called Bick, and had she shown the slightest remorse for her crimes she might deserve some. IMO she does not. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Jul 8, 2020 12:54:10 GMT -8
If we "wish" everyone "grace", doesn't that mean hell would be empty? It seems to me that some people just belong there (not specifically this woman), based on what they did in this life.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jul 8, 2020 20:15:56 GMT -8
It's called "grace", vile. I know what it's called Bick, and had she shown the slightest remorse for her crimes she might deserve some. IMO she does not. I didn't know her personally, so I really can't give a fair assessment of her sense of remorse. She did marry the guy, and seemed to lead a decent enough life, but the fact is I'm not in a position to judge her...and I really like that. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jul 8, 2020 20:19:07 GMT -8
If we "wish" everyone "grace", doesn't that mean hell would be empty? It seems to me that some people just belong there (not specifically this woman), based on what they did in this life. I'm not good enough to wish everyone grace. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jul 8, 2020 20:29:52 GMT -8
If we "wish" everyone "grace", doesn't that mean hell would be empty? It seems to me that some people just belong there (not specifically this woman), based on what they did in this life. An excellent question, this is my opinion on it. Through Scripture, we are told grace (favor we give to someone who does not deserve it) is a virtue after which we are to seek. But the grace I extend to others is not dispositive of the penalty for their sin, which God has determined is Hell. THAT grace, only God can grant, and He only grants it to those who turn to Him, through Christ’s atonement in the cross, which we don’t deserve and cannot earn. So, in the case at the bar, we do not have enough information to know whether or not Mary Kay LeTourneau repented of (all) her sin and turned to Christ before she died. If she did, regardless of how reprobate a person she was, God says He cleanses her of all unrighteousness and grants her entry to heaven. If she did not, she has to pay the penalty for (all) her sin and the only place to do that is hell. So the Professor is right to wish she had given her life to Christ before she died, but he doesn’t get her into heaven by wishing it... again, only God can do that. |
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Post by ProfessorFate on Jul 8, 2020 22:03:32 GMT -8
I’m sure we each know some folks whose minds submit to their emotions or wants. seems to me neither the 12 year old boy nor Mary Kay LeTourneau has a maturity level needed to properly assess right from wrong in that instance: He, because his mind has not matured to the point, yet, and she because her desire to get her button off over-rides her rational decision-making. I also submit she COULD HAVE gone out and found her an equally horny 20-something stud who would have been more than willing to sand down her edges, but she did not, which makes me wonder if her psyche was more on a 12 year old level. none of these hypotheses mitigates her behavior. She chose and, then, she paid the consequences. But Professor wishing her grace would seem the appropriate stand to take, now that she has passed. That child could probably, at 13 (he was 13 when the affair became physical), years old, kick Vile Pagan's arse with one hand tied behind his back. He was a father twice at the age of 15.  There's so much we don't know. There was a hint of sexual abuse as a child in the movie version. Who knows if that was true, but if it was, how did that affect her behavior? Was she a nympho? I'm fairly sure that answer to that is no. Nymphos have many different lovers. What was her relationship with her first husband? A lot we don't know there. As far as her needing to "get her button off," I'm thinking that was secondary to her feelings for this kid. She truly seemed to "love" him. I'm not sure she really knew what she was feeling to be honest. She definitely was impressed by his talent as an artist. I don't know what that means, but perhaps it was like a woman swooning over the poems of a John Keats, or a Percy Bysshe Shelley. (Maybe poor examples, because poetry was never my forte). But who knows...she may have felt something that was missing in her relationship with her first husband. Still very poor decision making, and she had children by that first marriage.I wonder if there was ever any contact with those children after that family broke apart. Like Davidsf and I said, hopefully she turned to Our Lord for forgiveness, before she passed away. |
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Post by vilepagan on Jul 9, 2020 2:09:17 GMT -8
I’m sure we each know some folks whose minds submit to their emotions or wants. seems to me neither the 12 year old boy nor Mary Kay LeTourneau has a maturity level needed to properly assess right from wrong in that instance: He, because his mind has not matured to the point, yet, and she because her desire to get her button off over-rides her rational decision-making. I also submit she COULD HAVE gone out and found her an equally horny 20-something stud who would have been more than willing to sand down her edges, but she did not, which makes me wonder if her psyche was more on a 12 year old level. none of these hypotheses mitigates her behavior. She chose and, then, she paid the consequences. But Professor wishing her grace would seem the appropriate stand to take, now that she has passed. That child..... was a father twice at the age of 15. There's so much we don't know. There was a hint of sexual abuse as a child in the movie version. Who knows if that was true, but if it was, how did that affect her behavior? Was she a nympho? I'm fairly sure that answer to that is no. Nymphos have many different lovers. What was her relationship with her first husband? A lot we don't know there. As far as her needing to "get her button off," I'm thinking that was secondary to her feelings for this kid. She truly seemed to "love" him. I'm not sure she really knew what she was feeling to be honest. She definitely was impressed by his talent as an artist. I don't know what that means, but perhaps it was like a woman swooning over the poems of a John Keats, or a Percy Bysshe Shelley. (Maybe poor examples, because poetry was never my forte). But who knows...she may have felt something that was missing in her relationship with her first husband. Still very poor decision making, and she had children by that first marriage.I wonder if there was ever any contact with those children after that family broke apart. Like Davidsf and I said, hopefully she turned to Our Lord for forgiveness, before she passed away. Wow. You sure do make a lot of excuses for this woman and her behavior. You may feel sorry for her because she might have been sexually abused... You may think she really "loved" the kid.... You may feel she was impressed with his artistic talent and she "swooned"....rofl Or maybe she just felt there was a 12 year-old boy missing in her sex life.... But the good news is that if she turned to God before she died she's forgiven... I have to say that I'm really glad I never bought into this nonsense...and I repeat, you've got some seriously effed up ideas Professor. |
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Post by ProfessorFate on Jul 9, 2020 2:26:35 GMT -8
I have to say that I'm really glad I never bought into this nonsense...and I repeat, you've got some seriously effed up ideas Professor. The fact that you feel that way, is reassuring to me. If you ever agreed with me, I'd know I must be wrong. |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Jul 9, 2020 9:25:54 GMT -8
If we "wish" everyone "grace", doesn't that mean hell would be empty? It seems to me that some people just belong there (not specifically this woman), based on what they did in this life. It's good for us to pray for God's grace and forgiveness for everyone, regardless of what they did in their life. That, however, has no bearing upon the judgment rendered by God upon the person in question. A person's actions determine their eternal destiny. God gives us free will and so He will not force the person who has rejected Him in this life to spend eternity with Him. I suppose one can "hope" that hell is empty (and some modern theologians have promoted this possibility) but, ultimately, we have no control over that. The bigger problem with the "empty hell" thesis, though, is that it seems to undermine the doctrines of free will and God's eternal justice. The "everyone goes to heaven" thinking leads to religious and moral indifferentism, and severely undercuts a sense of purpose and meaning in life. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jul 9, 2020 9:49:53 GMT -8
Even BilePagan will know truth at some point.
It can be hoped he, too, will find Grace before it is too late.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Jul 9, 2020 10:07:32 GMT -8
If we "wish" everyone "grace", doesn't that mean hell would be empty? It seems to me that some people just belong there (not specifically this woman), based on what they did in this life. It's good for us to pray for God's grace and forgiveness for everyone, regardless of what they did in their life. That, however, has no bearing upon the judgment rendered by God upon the person in question. If our praying for God's grace for someone else has no bearing on God's decision, then isn't it just a feel-good gesture of virtue signalling? That sounds a lttle left-wing Democratic to me. |
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Jul 9, 2020 10:19:25 GMT -8
If our praying for God's grace for someone else has no bearing on God's decision, then isn't it just a feel-good gesture of virtue signalling? It's only potential virtue signaling if you go public with it. |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Jul 9, 2020 10:56:27 GMT -8
It's good for us to pray for God's grace and forgiveness for everyone, regardless of what they did in their life. That, however, has no bearing upon the judgment rendered by God upon the person in question. If our praying for God's grace for someone else has no bearing on God's decision, then isn't it just a feel-good gesture of virtue signalling? That sounds a lttle left-wing Democratic to me. It is a good thing to pray for the dead, that God will have mercy upon them. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Since the person's eternal destiny is know to God alone, we grow in virtue ourselves by praying--yes, hoping, even--that they will be saved. Our desire for God's mercy upon the deceased can be seen as a requirement for our own forgiveness from God. If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions. (Mt 6:14-15) Strictly speaking, our prayers may help the deceased by shortening their time of purification ( purgatory) on the way to Heaven, but cannot alter the particular judgment of God of heaven or hell that immediately follows their death. Some of the oldtimers might recall this teaching from their Baltimore Catechism, which good book is to a left-wing Democrat what garlic is to a vampire. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jul 9, 2020 11:56:50 GMT -8
It's good for us to pray for God's grace and forgiveness for everyone, regardless of what they did in their life. That, however, has no bearing upon the judgment rendered by God upon the person in question. If our praying for God's grace for someone else has no bearing on God's decision, then isn't it just a feel-good gesture of virtue signalling? That sounds a lttle left-wing Democratic to me. To be accurate, though, Professor did not pray for her to receive grace. He hoped for it. As he explained later, he was hoping she, at some point before she passed, had entered into salvation. so, as Credo explained, it is only God who can extend the grace of salvation, although Scripture does admonish us to strive to show it to others while we struggle here on this earthly plane. |
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Post by ProfessorFate on Jul 9, 2020 15:06:14 GMT -8
If our praying for God's grace for someone else has no bearing on God's decision, then isn't it just a feel-good gesture of virtue signalling? That sounds a lttle left-wing Democratic to me. Some of the oldtimers might recall this teaching from their Baltimore Catechism, which good book is to a left-wing Democrat what garlic is to a vampire. One of the things that helped me handle the grief I felt when my father died, was the realization that only by dying could he get to Heaven. That made me realize that, not only our prayers, but also our tears, and grief were, in a way, helping to pay for his ticket to Heaven. I wonder, then if someone dies, and no one grieves for them, are they in for a harder journey. |
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