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Post by vilepagan on Jun 16, 2020 6:07:54 GMT -8
Yesterday in a 6-3 ruling the SC upheld the rights of gays and trans people to not be discriminated against in employment. Joined by fellow conservative Chief Justice John Roberts and the court’s progressive wing, Gorsuch issued a landmark 6–3 ruling that Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act prevents employers from discriminating against workers because they are gay or transgender, paving the way for breakthrough employment protections for LGBTQ people around the country.
As Mark Joseph Stern explained, the justices followed a straightforward legal theory that the portion of the Civil Rights Act that prohibits discrimination “because of sex” encompassed discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. It’s impossible for an employer to discriminate against a gay or transgender person without taking into account the person’s sex, which would mean discriminating on that basis, Gorsuch reasoned.slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/06/carrie-severino-meltdown-neil-gorsuch-lgbtq-rights.htmlIt really was an elegant and eloquent ruling. Gorsuch reasoned quite logically that since Title VII prevents discrimination based on sex this also applies to the question in this case. If a company doesn't punish one sex for certain behaviors it cannot punish the other sex for the same behaviors.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jun 16, 2020 6:41:15 GMT -8
Not reading your post, but to the thread title, So what?
🤷🏻♂️
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Jun 16, 2020 15:50:06 GMT -8
Yesterday in a 6-3 ruling the SC upheld the rights of gays and trans people to not be discriminated against in employment. It really was an elegant and eloquent ruling. Gorsuch reasoned quite logically that since Title VII prevents discrimination based on sex this also applies to the question in this case. If a company doesn't punish one sex for certain behaviors it cannot punish the other sex for the same behaviors. (Yeah, I read his analogy here and it's an embarrassing case of pretzel logic which has nothing to do with discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity, which is what the majority essentially appended to the original 1964 legislation.)I'm going to give you credit for FINALLY creating a thread topic, but will have to disagree as to the merits of this case. Title VII was clearly written to protect against workplace and employment discrimination against women (and less likely, but possibly, men). That was the plain intent. No one argues against that. What Gorsuch and the majority here have done is legislate from the bench by re-interpreting the plain meaning of "sex" to include a notion of gender ideology totally unknown or unanticipated by those who drafted and voted in favor of the original legislation in 1964. And I find it hard to believe that employment discrimination based on sexual orientation is really a major issue in America in 2020. Most states have their own laws against this, which I don't object to, but just like Roe v. Wade and Obergefell, SCOTUS steps in and short-circuits the democratic process and decrees a national standard based on a tortured interpretation of a statute that had nothing to do with a newly desired "right." Congress is the place to go for this--just like the original Title VII issues in the 1960's. While the decision issued yesterday is limited to areas of employment law, by imposing a gender ideology that says that "sex" is nothing but a social construct--against the plain words and meaning of what was intended in Title VII--the downstream consequences for women and girls will likely be disastrous, as it will become increasingly difficult to maintain women's-only sports, bathrooms, locker rooms, jails, and homeless shelters, putting countless women at competitive disadvantages and in unnecessary risk and discomfort. Men cannot be barred from playing in the WNBA or professional women's soccer. Goodbye female sports. Well done. p.s. If biological sex becomes a meaningless category, then I guess that means that "homosexuals" no longer exist, since the concept itself implies a biological and binary concept of sex that is outside the socially constructed theory of sex and gender that is now enshrined in law. Well done again.
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Jun 16, 2020 17:38:43 GMT -8
I agree with this ruling. I had to think about it, but ultimately I think it’s wrong to discriminate against people based on their sexual practices or "beliefs." I agree with you, Credo, that it probably sets a bad precedent by implying that gender is a mere social construct. I don’t care much for that legal reasoning and I don’t know how widespread such discrimination really is in the workplace, but I have to agree with the principle of the ruling.
I would imagine it remains reasonable to fire or avoid hiring someone based on inapropriate sexually oriented behavior in an interview or in the workplace. But simply being gay or transgender for the most part does not seem an adequate justification to hire or fire.
One problem will be religious organizations for whom a basic tenant of their religious beliefs is opposition to homosexuality. But again if somebody's workplace behavior is too off-the-wall I would think that that justifies dismissal still. Religious organizations preach against “sinners”, also. But yet they routinely hire people who are sinners, since we all fit that description.
A potentially larger problem would be the theoretical - and admittedly simplistic - example of a guy who states (w ith or without evidence of such) that he is a transgender woman applying for a job in a female locker room. That will undoubtedly come up eventually and I would hate to think that commonsense would have to retreat in the face of legalisms.
There are potential problems, but overall I think the Supreme Court did it right……………………….Luca
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Jun 16, 2020 18:14:06 GMT -8
Rulings like this are often fraught with unforeseen consequences. For example, suppose a legitimate swimsuit company is hiring swimsuit/bikini models and unknowingly hires a trans "woman". At the first photo shoot, everyone notices "she" has a pecker bulge in her bikini bottoms. Does the company have any recourse?
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Jun 16, 2020 18:24:59 GMT -8
Look, I'm not advocating for the firing of people simply for what they believe themselves to be, but agreeing with the outcome or the intention behind a ruling doesn't mean the result was arrived at in the right way. What irks me about these kinds of decisions is how the judicial branch arrogates to itself the right to usurp the proper role of the legislative branch, thereby creating all kinds of unintended problems because of the textual jujitsu necessary to tease "transgenderism" out of the plain meaning of "biological sex" that was intended by the original statute.
How something is done often as important as why it's done.
It's a simple fact that some jobs are sex-specific, and it seems to me that an employer has a reasonable right to make those decisions. What happens when your granddaughter or your wife prefers to see a female OBGYN, but has to get examined by some dude who claims he's a woman? You think common sense is going to prevail in the face of a potential lawsuit or an SJW shaming campaign? That's where we're heading I'm afraid.
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Jun 16, 2020 19:11:36 GMT -8
You're right. There are potential undesirable ramifications. It would have been better if Congress passed a law making the intent explicit and not the result of linguistic gymnastics. But I think the principle involved in the decision trumps the reasonably anticipated complications that might arise. Engineers have a saying: "The perfect is the enemy of the good.".............................Luca
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Jun 16, 2020 20:02:02 GMT -8
I have no issue with this ruling because, as a business owner, I really don't care who my employees sleep with. My concern is how well they do their job and that they become an integral part of the company.
Now, if an employee uses their sexual orientation to disrupt the company, be it a straight guy hitting on every female or a lesbian showing pictures of she & her girlfriends adventures to other employees, they will be fired. Not based on their sexuality, but based on their actions that create problems in the workplace.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Jun 16, 2020 20:06:51 GMT -8
As an aside, I have never known or even heard of a person being fired for being gay. I did know a gay guy who was an asshole who was fired for being an asshole, but he was convinced he was fired for being gay. He was incorrect.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Jun 16, 2020 21:31:02 GMT -8
As an aside, I have never known or even heard of a person being fired for being gay. I did know a gay guy who was an asshole who was fired for being an asshole, but he was convinced he was fired for being gay. He was incorrect. Did he live in Philadelphia?
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Jun 16, 2020 22:13:29 GMT -8
For anyone interested in a deeper dive into the complications the court has now introduced in the Bostock v. Clayton County case, see this excellent article by Ryan T. Anderson:
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Post by ProfessorFate on Jun 16, 2020 23:45:08 GMT -8
My main concern is whether religious schools can refuse to hire LGBTXYZ teachers, and/or whether they can fire them once they start trying to indoctrinate the students.
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Post by vilepagan on Jun 17, 2020 2:48:51 GMT -8
I agree with this ruling. I had to think about it, but ultimately I think it’s wrong to discriminate against people based on their sexual practices or "beliefs." I agree with you, Credo, that it probably sets a bad precedent by implying that gender is a mere social construct. I'm curious to hear your reasoning as to why you think this ruling in any way implied that gender was a mere social construct. In his opinion Justice Gorsuch made no such implication IMO. From NPR: Gorsuch couched his opinion in terms of the text of the 1964 statute and its ban on discrimination because of sex.
"It is impossible to discriminate against a person for being homosexual or transgender without discriminating ... based on sex," the justice wrote. He gave the example of two employees attracted to men — one male, the other female. "If the employer fires the male employee for no reason other than the fact that he is attracted to men," but not the woman who is attracted to men, that is clearly a firing based on sex, he said.www.npr.org/2020/06/15/863498848/supreme-court-delivers-major-victory-to-lgbtq-employees
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thefrog
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Post by thefrog on Jun 17, 2020 5:15:26 GMT -8
My main concern is whether religious schools can refuse to hire LGBTXYZ teachers, and/or whether they can fire them once they start trying to indoctrinate the students. This is the main argument against this ruling. The answer to both your questions is no, but outside of Title 7, I would assume that if the school's policy bans "indoctrination" (whatever that may be), the school could dismiss on those grounds.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jun 17, 2020 7:52:43 GMT -8
As an aside, I have never known or even heard of a person being fired for being gay. I did know a gay guy who was an asshole who was fired for being an asshole, but he was convinced he was fired for being gay. He was incorrect. That right there is the problem, though. homosexuals have a very low tolerance for inconvenience (and personal accountability). You fire them for anything, be it for theft, sexually abusing customers’ children, or just being a dumbass employee, they aren’t going to accept responsibility on themselves. It a.ways has to be someone else’s fault and, since their sexual preference is their go-to shield, that will be their first response: “Waaaahhh! He fired me for being gay.” and sure as God made little green apples, some ACL’f*ck’U wannabe lawyer will pick it up and pro bono you into court over it because, now, SCOTUS has told us what “sex” means.
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