Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
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Post by Luca on Nov 29, 2020 12:38:38 GMT -8
Natural Law is a fundamental precept of Western philosophy and culture. It has been recognized for millennia and is referred to by Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Cicero, Hobbes, John Locke, Rousseau, Thomas Jefferson, and countless others throughout history. You may not have heard it referred to as "Natural Law" but I am sure you have heard one of its more famous expressions:
“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them…….
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights………."
So, you have heard of natural law, you just didn’t know it by that name. (Sorry. I was a philosophy minor and we all assume, "Hey, who's not familiar with Rousseau", right?)
Yes, you make yourself clear. The disagreement lies in that you don’t seem to see that you define “murder” simply by the statutes of the government du jour, whereas they refer to the underlying Natural Law. If you hold that the unborn are human (and thus endowed with "unalienable rights"), they are inherently innocent and hence killing them is murder under the Natural Law. You don’t have to like their conclusion but the logic is unassailable.
(Similarly, abolitionists did not hold that Southern slavery was by statute a crime. They held - correctly - that it was a crime against mankind, i.e. a violation of Natural Law. They were thus also technically correct in calling slavery a crime.)
You have left unanswered a few questions:
1). If, as you say, millions of Jews and Gypsies were not murdered in the Holocaust, why are they routinely referred to throughout history as having been murdered?
2). What is your understanding of the definition of "fascist"?.............................................Luca
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 30, 2020 3:07:26 GMT -8
Ok, philosophically speaking you can call it murder if you like, but I really wasn't speaking philosophically. I see no reason to go all abstract about abortion. I think that philosophy runs hard up against practicality when we digress into the philosophical aspects of the issue.
As to your questions...
1. Because the Nazis lost the war.
2. Originally it referred to the regime set up by Mussolini, but has been used on others. Right-wing, authoritarian, controlling most aspects of society like the economy, fascists favor interventionist economic policies, a regimented society, strong leaders or dictators...stuff like that. Why do you ask?
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
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Post by MDDad on Nov 30, 2020 10:58:21 GMT -8
Luca, this is another good example of the childish ignorance of people who rely on google for their responses rather than going to the trouble of thinking things through.
It is liberal Democrats who are "authoritarian" in issuing ever more obtrusive restrictions on our personal liberties.
It is liberal Democrats who continually seek to "control most aspects of our society like the economy".
It is liberal Democrats who "favor interventionist economic policies".
It is liberal Democrats who favor a "regimented society" controlled by government.
It is liberal Democratic governors and mayors like Gavin Newsom, Kate Brown, Jay Inslee, Andrew Cuomo, J.B. Pritzker, Gretchen Whitmer, Eric Garcetti, Ted Wheeler, Jenny Durkan, Bill de Blasio and Lori Lightfoot who act like "dictators" when issuing new proclamations and restrictions almost every week without the benefit of any legislative review or approval.
And yet it's Donald Trump who is a fascist.
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SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
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Post by SK80 on Nov 30, 2020 11:54:04 GMT -8
"Fasicist" has become the most twisted used word by false definition, I swear 90% of the time you hear it there underlies mis-truth and mis-usage along with complete misunderstanding.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 30, 2020 13:37:27 GMT -8
Luca, this is another good example of the childish ignorance of people who rely on google for their responses rather than going to the trouble of thinking things through. blah, blah, blah... And yet it's Donald Trump who is a fascist. Who the heck said anything about trump? MDDad, Luca and I were having a nice adult conversation about abortion before you blundered in here with your childish whining and stupid insults. If you have nothing intelligent to say, say nothing. |
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
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Post by Credo on Nov 30, 2020 22:19:44 GMT -8
"Fasicist" has become the most twisted used word by false definition, I swear 90% of the time you hear it there underlies mis-truth and mis-usage along with complete misunderstanding. Fascism was and is just another variant of socialism. The NAZIs were the National Socialists in Germany, while the USSR was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Hitler's and Stalin's regimes were merely two sides of the same Marxist coin. Democratic Socialism--as favored by people like AOC--is still socialism. Notice that neither Joe Biden nor anyone else prominent among the Democrats has come out and publicly denounced socialism. It's use by liberals today is merely their lazy way of smearing anyone conservative whose ideas they are unable to refute. It's nothing more than a politicized version of calling someone a racist. It's utterly meaningless and an indication of a feeble mind unable to think for itself (hence its use by certain people on this message board). |
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
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Post by MDDad on Nov 30, 2020 22:30:54 GMT -8
Democratic Socialism--as favored by people like AOC--is still socialism. Notice that neither Joe Biden nor anyone else prominent among the Democrats has come out and publicly denounced socialism.It's use by liberals today is merely their lazy way of smearing anyone conservative whose ideas they are unable to refute. It's nothing more than a politicized version of calling someone a racist. It's utterly meaningless and an indication of a feeble mind unable to think for itself (hence its use by certain people on this message board). That's true, but neither Joe Biden nor any other prominent Democrats have come out and publicly embraced it either (not counting crazy people like Bernie, Liz and the squad). Calling someone a fascist has become as vague and meaningless as calling them an asshole. Both terms have lost all connection to their original meanings and have indeed become a telltale sign of a person who is out of ammo. |
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Post by vilepagan on Dec 1, 2020 3:22:50 GMT -8
"Fasicist" has become the most twisted used word by false definition, I swear 90% of the time you hear it there underlies mis-truth and mis-usage along with complete misunderstanding. Fascism was and is just another variant of socialism. The NAZIs were the National Socialists in Germany, while the USSR was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Hitler's and Stalin's regimes were merely two sides of the same Marxist coin. No, they aren't. As a matter of fact they were so diametrically opposed they fought a war over it...maybe you've heard of WWII? |
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Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
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Post by Luca on Dec 1, 2020 8:23:06 GMT -8
That's true. The National Socialists did claim to be socialist initially but they really weren't. They just said that to gain popularity with the working class. I have never quite understood what you would call their economy. The government did have centralized authority over the economy but I don't think they actually seized ownership or direct control of many corporations, including Krupp, IG Farben, Messerschmidt, etc
It seems the best way to describe their economy is just "random dictator ship by whim". Theirs wasn't exactly diametrically opposed (i.e., the opposite) of the Soviets. The US was the opposite. The German economy was a random combination of government control and free market enterprise with direction by brute intimidation. And it was really crappy.................Luca
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Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
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Post by Luca on Dec 1, 2020 13:07:17 GMT -8
Ok, philosophically speaking you can call it murder if you like, but I really wasn't speaking philosophically. I see no reason to go all abstract about abortion. I think that philosophy runs hard up against practicality when we digress into the philosophical aspects of the issue. As to your questions... 1. Because the Nazis lost the war. 2. Originally it referred to the regime set up by Mussolini, but has been used on others. Right-wing, authoritarian, controlling most aspects of society like the economy, fascists favor interventionist economic policies, a regimented society, strong leaders or dictators...stuff like that. Why do you ask? But it's a philosophical question that has to be addressed: "When does life begin?"
If you favor simple practicality versus addressing the philosophical questions you wind up with all manner of counterintuitive conclusions. If practicality is the ultimate goal, why do we put old folks in ICU's? Why do we treat people with terminal cancer? It's because we value human life. Hence it's important to make the philosophical decision as to when human life begins (and ends, for that matter). I do believe you are being flippant and evasive when you state that the reason we say millions of Jews and gypsies were "murdered" in the Holocaust is merely because "the Nazis lost the war." As though the definition of the word hinged merely on the current statutes of any given government, no matter how repugnant. If it were that simple, why do we say that 15,000 Polish officers were murdered in the Katyn Forest by the Soviets? The Soviets won the war and yet this was murder, nonetheless. By your definition, the Gestapo murdered no one. The Japanese did not murder over 100,000 China civilians to avenge the Doolittle Raid. The Rape of Nanking did not involve murder. These are the inevitable conclusions given your narrow, legalistic definition of the term. You are pretty much correct regarding the term "fascist." You could also add the concept that the citizen serves the state rather than vice versa, but I'm being pedantic. The reason I asked is because so few people who use the term really know what it means, and I was curious why even in hyperbole you would append the term to people who are earnestly trying to save innocent lives, avoid bombing abortion clinics and share few of the characteristics you mentioned..........................................Luca |
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Post by vilepagan on Dec 1, 2020 15:51:42 GMT -8
I don't believe that the question "when does life begin" is as important to the issue of abortion as the question "who gets to make the decision". I believe that fetuses are alive. I also believe that a mother has the right to abort a fetus she is carrying according to the law. I believe that the SC decision in Roe v. Wade is as good a compromise as we're likely to reach on the issue. I think these sort of deeply personal questions do not belong to the government, they belong to us as individuals, and frankly I'm a little astounded that anyone would want the government involved in any way.
Discussing whether the Jews were murdered by the Nazis or if the Chinese were murdered by the Japanese may be an interesting philosophical aside but I don't think it's terribly relevant to the question of abortion.
Lastly, I thought I was clear that the only reason I appended the term "fascist" to anti-abortionists was as hyperbole designed to inflame emotions...and it seems to have done just that. In this case the term could be used as a synonym for "authoritarian".
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
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Post by Credo on Dec 2, 2020 20:30:05 GMT -8
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Post by vilepagan on Dec 3, 2020 3:22:36 GMT -8
It's a pity you don't have any thoughts of your own to share Credo. I'm sure that your thoughts are slightly more intelligent than "Reminding everyone that part of the great reset is a need to destroy small businesses"...at least I hope so.
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SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
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Post by SK80 on Dec 4, 2020 6:58:02 GMT -8
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
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Post by MDDad on Dec 4, 2020 7:16:13 GMT -8
When busboys and dishwashers get laid off, it's "all of us doing our part because we're all in this together". But when millionaire entertainment execs get laid off, it's "a bloodbath". What a bunch of self-important assholes.
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