thefrog
Eminence Grise
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Post by thefrog on Mar 27, 2021 11:26:21 GMT -8
We SHOULD be the most powerful nation in the world. Any citizen (of any country) that doesn't believe that their country should be the best is... well, unpatriotic.
That was the most asinine post in a while. Congratulations.
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by MDDad on Mar 27, 2021 13:11:31 GMT -8
I think VP's post unintentionally illustrates the feeling so many on the left have of this country -- that it is mostly a negative history and reality, that it doesn't deserve to be #1 in anything, and that it needs to be taken down to the studs and rebuilt from scratch. It's a very slanted, cynical view of the greatest experiment in liberty and opportunity in human history.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Mar 27, 2021 13:59:44 GMT -8
I think this is the core issue with the left that has me convinced I'm no longer a fit to associate with them.
I love our history and the freedoms and opportunities we enjoy.
I celebrate the minorities and their struggles to overcome the obstacles in their way. In my opinion, those are the heroes. But that doesn't make the majority the bad guy, who now owes some form of reparation or special privileges to the similarly situated minorities who are now portrayed as victims. I don't believe creating, and then supporting victims helps them. It makes them weaker.
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Post by vilepagan on Mar 28, 2021 2:35:52 GMT -8
Why should the US be the most powerful and influential country in the world? Because we have all the money? I'm also curious why you picked the date of 1918...we weren't the most powerful and influential nation in the world until after WWII. I didn't say the United States should be the most powerful and influential country in the world, but the fact is that we are, and the only other option for that position is China. Given that China keeps the vast majority of its citizenry living in miserable abject poverty, that it aggressively pursues its imperialistic strategy of territorial expansion, and that it actively condones slavery for specific ethnic groups within its borders, the world is certainly a better place with the U.S. in that position than the Chinese. And we clearly don't have all the money. Fortunately, Joe Biden doesn't have enough printing presses to put us in that position. However, we certainly have the most debt. We also have the largest, most dynamic economy (despite the best efforts of the American left to damage it in the past 12 months) and the most powerful military, and those things give us the championship belt, at least for a short time longer. Most historians believe the United States became the most powerful and influential nation in the world after World War I. Most of those who disagree feel it was the end of the Spanish-American War in 1898. History has proven them correct, as Germany, Japan and the Soviet Union have all fallen decisively short of displacing us. I see. So the fact that we ARE the most powerful country in the world (thanks to all the money we spend) doesn't mean we have to stay that way. I was unaware that China was so interested in keeping the "vast majority" of its citizens living in abject poverty...perhaps your views of what's going on in China aren't all that accurate. Most professional historians understand that at the beginning of WWII (1939) we had the 19th largest army in the world...hardly the mark of a world power. I'm going to have to consider your views about what "most" historians think to be wishful thinking on your part. Kudos to you for having the only remotely on topic response. |
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Post by vilepagan on Mar 28, 2021 2:40:07 GMT -8
We SHOULD be the most powerful nation in the world. Any citizen (of any country) that doesn't believe that their country should be the best is... well, unpatriotic. That was the most asinine post in a while. Congratulations. I see you outdid me for asinine. I would congratulate you but you put forth no special effort. I was discussing reality not your fanciful notions about "patriotism". Why is it that conservatives are so keen to tell others what it means to be patriotic? |
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Post by vilepagan on Mar 28, 2021 2:45:48 GMT -8
Do you not want the US to be the most powerful country in the world? I think that's a question asked by someone with a very childlike view of history. I think we should accept that we make up ~5% of the world's population and that we have no right to dictate to the rest of the world what they should think just because we can afford more guns and bombs. I think it's dangerous and foolish to conflate military might with moral rectitude. |
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Post by vilepagan on Mar 28, 2021 3:00:40 GMT -8
I think this is the core issue with the left that has me convinced I'm no longer a fit to associate with them. I love our history and the freedoms and opportunities we enjoy. But the "left" doesn't...correct? Let me ask you this...you say you love our history while insinuating that the left does not...are you familiar with the Tuskegee Experiment? Please tell me what part of that history you "love". Please tell me what sort of freedom and opportunities were enjoyed by the unwitting participants in the experiment. Now tell me that you would have held the same opinions that you hold now if you had been a participant, or a relative of a participant. As a white guy your experiences and views about this country are not shared by those of your fellow citizens who are non-white. You talk like you believe they should have been but don't seem to want to acknowledge that they weren't. |
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thefrog
Eminence Grise
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Post by thefrog on Mar 28, 2021 6:32:19 GMT -8
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on Mar 28, 2021 6:51:05 GMT -8
Not going to engage you until you take the entire post in context,and make an effort to see the other perspective.
I've already done the "you attack, me defend" thing more than enough times to know I'll not likely get an acknowledgement from you that my position has any merit whatsoever,and we just agree to disagree.
Make a legit effort, and I'll respond.
If you're willing to do that, I've got some questions for you relative to THIS thread.
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Post by vilepagan on Mar 28, 2021 9:59:48 GMT -8
Not going to engage you until you take the entire post in context,and make an effort to see the other perspective. I've already done the "you attack, me defend" thing more than enough times to know I'll not likely get an acknowledgement from you that my position has any merit whatsoever,and we just agree to disagree. Make a legit effort, and I'll respond. If you're willing to do that, I've got some questions for you relative to THIS thread. I see. Let me know when you feel you can respond to what I already posted and stand up for what you already posted. I have no idea if your position has any merit because you refuse to respond. You stated that you love our history and implied that the "left" does not...can you support that statement or not? |
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thefrog
Eminence Grise
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Post by thefrog on Mar 28, 2021 11:16:07 GMT -8
My undergraduate was in World History from a liberal university.
No wonder my view of the history is "childlike."
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by MDDad on Mar 28, 2021 12:04:20 GMT -8
Let me ask you this...you say you love our history while insinuating that the left does not...are you familiar with the Tuskegee Experiment? Digging up an obscure anecdote like the Tuskegee experiment to try and undermine another's high opinion of American history is a particularly weak and amateurish debate tactic. John Kennedy was a drug addict and sexual pervert. Does that negate the left's opinion of him? Bill Clinton was also a sexual pervert, habitual liar and perjurer, yet many hold him in high regard. Jesus Christ used a whip to drive the moneychangers from the temple. Martin Luther King was a serial adulterer. And you can easily google the many negative criticisms of Mother Teresa and Mohandas Ghandi. A serious debater would look at the entire history or body of work of a person or nation rather than point out just the warts. |
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thefrog
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Post by thefrog on Mar 28, 2021 12:14:07 GMT -8
I can't think of one nation with an unblemished history. Then again, my viewpoint of history is childish.
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by MDDad on Mar 28, 2021 12:37:17 GMT -8
My undergrad degree is also in history (and biology). The only perfect nation with no negatives is obviously the one the left is currently trying to establish.
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on Mar 28, 2021 12:53:01 GMT -8
I hadn't heard of the Tuskegee Experiment before, so I spent a little time to see what it was all about.
From what I understand, it was acceptable at the time, but then later found (rightly so) to be unacceptable. A class action suit followed and awarded the participants / families of the experiment restitution, and ended the practice nearly half a century ago.
For some reason, Clinton felt compelled to formally apologize for those events that happened some 20 years before him being president.
Again, I celebrate the fact we changed that practice, and think those who endured that and subsequently thrived here are the real heroes / victims.
I won't apologize for actions I had nothing to do with, nor would I want one from someone who did not perpetrate an offense.
I also won't apologize for being a straight, mixed race male American who doesn't think I owe the next in line, woke would be victim group a damn thing.
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