RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Apr 13, 2019 12:43:03 GMT -8
I don't think we're on the same page here... ...I don't believe that universities are running a Ponzi scheme with guys standing on orange crates holding megaphones and yelling "Step right up and ride that philosophy degree into a golden future!"... Actually, I don't think it's that the dead end majors themselves are the problem so much as that tuitions are so ungodly high, as someone pointed out earlier. College situations are a bubble and I think the day of reckoning is coming for a lot of universities I would say we are on the same page, just in different paragraphs Where we differ is on the promises made about what a college education will do for someone. Some of those claims are made by colleges, others are made by high schools and even the Media pipes in. How often have you heard the old statistic that those who go to college make an average of over a million dollars more in their lifetime than those who don't (or something very similar to that)? That is a true statistic, but it implies causation that doesn't exist. The student who is enough of a self starter to go to college is going to make more money over his lifetime than johnny potsmoker no matter what. College is not the reason for the increase, the ambition of the student is. That statistic also ignores the millions of dollars made by the athletes and entrepreneurs who start at college and then go to their sports career or start companies that grow. Again, a couple years of college education had nothing to do with the incomes of these folks, but the lie of the statistic goes on. It is interesting you mention Ponzi scheme, I used to give Fordama a hard time about his Mathematics degree. I forget what specific area of Mathematics it was in, but it was so narrowly focused that for 90 percent of his students, the only real world use of that degree was to become a professor & teach that same subject. That is the quintessential definition of a Ponzi scheme, basically handing the hot potato down to the next guy. Learning & knowledge are a positive thing in ones life. Universities in their current model do not exist to provide that positive.
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Luca
Master Statesman
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Post by Luca on Apr 13, 2019 13:36:39 GMT -8
"The student who is enough of a self starter to go to college is going to make more money over his lifetime than johnny potsmoker no matter what. College is not the reason for the increase, the ambition of the student is."
Exactly, RSM. That is an excellent point, and someone who understands how statistics can be manipulated recognizes that right off.
You can leverage a college education into a very successful career but the window of opportunity is narrowing over time, we seem to agree. I do not defend colleges, especially for their current business model. Too many are more businesses and less institutions of learning as time goes on. The most dramatic example would be a school like Harvard with a $35+ billion endowment that charges students >50,000+ per year to attend. The wealthy schools like that do abuse their students, I would agree.
It seems our difference is that I take a more laissez-faire approach as to who is responsible. I don't think adults can reasonably borrow money and then plead ignorance that they didn't know what they were buying. You have to start doing your homework before you go to college. Its unfortunate that some exercise such poor judgment but that is how life works, unfortunately.
Blanche Dubois may have been able to "rely on the kindness of strangers", but the rest of us have to exercise some common sense...........................Luca
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Apr 13, 2019 14:45:16 GMT -8
I think we are closer on this than it may appear. Like you, I believe the students & their parents are responsible for their decisions. I don't believe in forgiving student loan debt by the government, the wrong source is being empathetic with someone elses money. I just want the universities to also be held responsible for the mis-information they spread or that they do not correct because it benefits them. Specifically, I don't mean for universities to be sued & held financially responsible, but rather to just not be allowed to engage in such misleading practices that over value the worth of their product.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Apr 24, 2019 20:16:34 GMT -8
Just like the 2007-2008 housing crisis was largely caused by government meddling in the free market by demanding that banks give loans to anyone and everyone to avoid charges of discrimination and/or racism in their lending practices. Gosh, how could that have gone wrong?
Ditto the health insurance market.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Apr 26, 2019 6:00:02 GMT -8
By the time my children get to college, they will be at least 18, so all I can really tell them for sure is, I will not be able to pay for their college. Beyond that, I have counseled all three (stepdaughter included) about how to get through college with minimal debt because there are consequences to debt “I don’t think you want or need to experience.” My step daughter ignored me and is now suffering those consequences. Fortunately, her bio-father is pretty well off and is still supplementing her income (after partially subsidizing her tuition/room/board). Further, she has a BFA degree from a corporate art school in animation and drawing that she has decided causes her too much stress. So she has turned her back on her dream of becoming a professional animator (a job which she held, and quit) to work for Petco part time selling pets... sos she only wasted her bio-father’s money. i told all of them, - College is not as necessary today as it once was, but
- If you do see a need, a lot of employers will pick up all or part of the tab once you’re established,
- It is not necessary to complete it all in 4 years, a lot of (if not most of) the colleges today have regimens specifically for working adults
- Online courses are usually less expensive
- Join the military: they will cover expenses while you’re in, some of your experiences in your specialty can count towards degree credit, and once you’re out, either the military has veterans education benefits, or at least you will have saved some (or more).
- Do your first two years at community college, but coordinate your classes with the university or college you want to attend so you’re certain credits will transfer.
My son is 18, graduating HS in a month, and has decided he will take a year off to work and save before moving forward. He wants to be a Youth Pastor so college will be a requirement, but all the above guidelines still apply.
he is unaware I have been buying him mutual fund shares since he was born so he will get a nice nest egg here pretty soon... of course, he’ll want to buy a cool car with it... 🤷🏻♂️
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Post by Zebra on Apr 26, 2019 7:38:15 GMT -8
My oldest will be working her debt off in the US Air Force after graduating from the Academy this summer. She says she wants to make it a career. Youngest has a non-bribery full gymnastics ride to a major University. I helped my son pay his student debt off a few years after attending Colorado State. Now he gets to send his 4 daughters to school and ... I get to build my mancave!
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Apr 26, 2019 7:54:28 GMT -8
If we just lay aside for a moment the fact that Maxine Waters is an out-of-touch blithering idiot, the whole "forgiving student debt" idea is just one symptom of a broader leftist agenda. Anyone who has taken first-grade arithmetic knows that forgiving student loans, free college tuition going forward, free healthcare for everyone, retrofitting every building in America, going completely green energy, replacing domestic air travel with high speed rail, guaranteeing every person in America a living wage and a comfortable home, etc., will cost more money than there is in the entire galaxy. Yet when pressed on how these measures will be financed, the left always says "we need to invest in these things", or "we will ask the rich to may more of their fair share in taxes".
Which begs the question: Most of the rich got that way because they are intelligent. Why should we assume that they will just sit back and allow the left to tax them more without taking measures to avoid doing so? If they are smart people, they will either off-shore themselves or their assets - something that is not all that difficult to do. Then where will the money come from?
And the left calls conservatives stupid.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Apr 26, 2019 8:15:47 GMT -8
My oldest will be working her debt off in the US Air Force after graduating from the Academy this summer. She says she wants to make it a career. Youngest has a non-bribery full gymnastics ride to a major University. I helped my son pay his student debt off a few years after attending Colorado State. Now he gets to send his 4 daughters to school and ... I get to build my mancave! Those military academies are pure gold. If you're not a D1 athlete, Merchant Marine Academy is another diamond in the rough opportunity with some really big payoffs after completion.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Apr 26, 2019 8:20:42 GMT -8
Just like the 2007-2008 housing crisis was largely caused by government meddling in the free market by demanding that banks give loans to anyone and everyone to avoid charges of discrimination and/or racism in their lending practices. Gosh, how could that have gone wrong? Ditto the health insurance market. Very few will attribute the genesis of the meltdown to Clinton's policy you're referring to. The lion's share of the blame falls on the ratings agencies though...IMO. Reckless Endangerment is a great read on this.
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Post by Zebra on Apr 26, 2019 9:31:09 GMT -8
My oldest will be working her debt off in the US Air Force after graduating from the Academy this summer. She says she wants to make it a career. Youngest has a non-bribery full gymnastics ride to a major University. I helped my son pay his student debt off a few years after attending Colorado State. Now he gets to send his 4 daughters to school and ... I get to build my mancave! Those military academies are pure gold. If you're not a D1 athlete, Merchant Marine Academy is another diamond in the rough opportunity with some really big payoffs after completion. I had that opportunity but when I showed up for my physical I flunked it due to only being 5' 2". Back in 75 you had to be pilot qualified to go to the academy which is a minimal height of 5' 6". Two years later they pulled those restrictions and let women into the USAFA.. I had all my credentials in order had an appointment and just had to get the physical done .. no go. Soooo, enlistment was the next step ..
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Jun 30, 2023 6:54:00 GMT -8
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Post by nictoe on Jun 30, 2023 7:07:13 GMT -8
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