davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
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Post by davidsf on May 4, 2019 8:35:30 GMT -8
MDD / Dave / Credo - It's pretty well documented what Obama's role has been in defending muslims. I'm interested in your take on the platform of the Christian Democrats, and specifically their position on abortion. Does it seem like a reasonable position to you? Again, democrats don’t know Christianity. they believe “Christians” are a homogenous voting group and from their “if you can’t join ‘em, Lick ‘em” perspective, they appear to be done trying to get us to vote for them so they are now trying to disparage and disgrace us. while there are still a few, Notably Nancy Pelosi and Maxine Waters, just to name a couple, who try to profess to be Christian or, at least, try to sound Christian when they spew their Christianesque at and about us as if God has granted them extra-Biblical insights into such matters as abortion. therefore, I submit, the question posed by this thread is moot: Yes, they are completely anti-Christian as evidenced so clearly by what they tell others we represent.
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Luca
Master Statesman
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Post by Luca on May 4, 2019 19:14:38 GMT -8
I hate to say this, but sometimes this board reminds me of TOB.
Some of the generalizations are of the type I might expect to see over there. How can we say that “Democrats don’t know Christianity“ when I’m sure that some of the most Christian people we know are certainly Democrats?
How can we say that “Democrats are anti-Christian“ when so many of them are devout Catholics and Protestants and Episcopalians and so on?
Obviously some don’t understand Christianity and some are anti-Christian, but the same can be said for some conservatives.
What I think many of us are referring to are the more visible, opportunistic and self anointed intellectuals of the Democratic Party. Christianity is a pretty big tent and you can have all sorts of political opinions while remaining within the tent. ...........Luca
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on May 5, 2019 7:20:24 GMT -8
Probably should have clarified what I meant by "today's democrats". Was thinking more along the lines of the number that have pushed further left so as to no longer possess basic Christian values.
Those at the far right probably don't have them either.
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by MDDad on May 5, 2019 7:33:28 GMT -8
I hate to say this, but sometimes this board reminds me of TOB. I hate to say this too, but I agree. There is always the temptation for us to become a mirror image of TOB, and spend our time ridiculing the posters on that forum, high profile leftists like AOC, or liberals in general. That is done at the expense of seriously discussing issues, because it's easier and more fun, and it's happening more and more every day. I know because I'm as bad at it as anybody, and it will take a conscious effort on all our parts to not fall off the cliff in that direction.
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Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
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Post by Bick on May 5, 2019 8:27:44 GMT -8
I hate to say this, but sometimes this board reminds me of TOB. I hate to say this too, but I agree. There is always the temptation for us to become a mirror image of TOB, and spend our time ridiculing the posters on that forum, high profile leftists like AOC, or liberals in general. That is done at the expense of seriously discussing issues, because it's easier and more fun, and it's happening more and more every day. I know because I'm as bad at it as anybody, and it will take a conscious effort on all our parts to not fall off the cliff in that direction. So long as we can stay focused on being hard on the issue, but easy on the person, I think we'll be OK. In other words, while AOC may look like a cross between Manson & Mr Ed, her or her handlers' points should be the primary takeaways of the post. I think most of the ridicule is not over done, and is actually pretty funny at times. But I have to confess (get it, Luca?), I haven't given it much thought.
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SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
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Post by SK80 on May 5, 2019 8:34:38 GMT -8
I hate to say this, but sometimes this board reminds me of TOB. I hate to say this too, but I agree. There is always the temptation for us to become a mirror image of TOB, and spend our time ridiculing the posters on that forum, high profile leftists like AOC, or liberals in general. That is done at the expense of seriously discussing issues, because it's easier and more fun, and it's happening more and more every day. I know because I'm as bad at it as anybody, and it will take a conscious effort on all our parts to not fall off the cliff in that direction. I appreciate the higher standards many of you want and do attain as far as discussion on this board, but to compare what I have experienced here as to what I read and see over there (TOB) is not remotely comparable IMHO. No harm in stating the above as a reminder however and if we have to live without MDDad and his daily throwing AOC under the dummy bus we just might have to turn on our tv's and watch more Comedy Central!
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
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Post by davidsf on May 5, 2019 9:38:48 GMT -8
I hate to say this, but sometimes this board reminds me of TOB. Some of the generalizations are of the type I might expect to see over there. How can we say that “Democrats don’t know Christianity“ when I’m sure that some of the most Christian people we know are certainly Democrats? How can we say that “Democrats are anti-Christian“ when so many of them are devout Catholics and Protestants and Episcopalians and so on? Obviously some don’t understand Christianity and some are anti-Christian, but the same can be said for some conservatives. What I think many of us are referring to are the more visible, opportunistic and self anointed intellectuals of the Democratic Party. Christianity is a pretty big tent and you can have all sorts of political opinions while remaining within the tent. ...........Luca OK, I understand what you’re saying, but I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying ... or, rather, how I’m using my terms, so permit me to clarify. first, when I read the question, I read it as applying to those (mostly) political figures who give lip service to what they think Christians believe in order to curry favor with “us” (in other words, pander for votes). Of course, not all democrats are anti- or even un-Christian and I, too, have friends who are both Christian and democrat, although I do believe they are wrong on a lot of the issues. For example, a hugely popular Christian writer, Rachel Held Evans, tragically passed away yesterday at the age of 37, leaving behind a husband and you g children. She was pro choice even though she does believe life starts at birth. Her reasoning, with which I disagree, was she doesn’t want us to go back to back-room abortions and thinks it is better to keep them legal, but educate them into a rarity. I do not doubt she’s a Christian, even despite the fact she prefers to vote democrat because “their programs make more sense.” She even supported Hillary Clinton in 2016 because she was uncertain about Trumps sincerity. i did not interpret that question to be asking about people like Ms.Evans, but about those democrats we see in the media all,the time. Second, I do not broadly apply the term “Christian.” I don’t accept membership in or even frequent attendance in a church building qualifies as an appropriate use of the term. Jesus Christ died on the cross to redeem us and, to me, ONLY those who have given their lives to Him, regardless of which church building they inhabit (and even if none at all) merit the use of the term. Lately, I have come to interchange the word “Christian” with the term “Christ-follower,” to avoid the inevitable assumption that “Christian” means “Church attender.” To clarify, I read the opening question as “are today’s Democrat [politicians and other liberal cause advocates] really anti [born again, followers of Jesus Christ] Christian?
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on May 5, 2019 10:32:33 GMT -8
...How can we say that “Democrats are anti-Christian“ when so many of them are devout Catholics and Protestants and Episcopalians and so on?...........Luca If one claims to be Democrat, but is a devout Catholic and opposes abortion, then they aren't a Democrat. They may vote for democrats, they may be registered as a democrat, but since abortion is part of the democratic platform, they are not a Democrat. If one claims to be Catholic, but is a devout Democrat and supports abortion, then they aren't Catholic. They may go to church on Sunday, they may send their kids to parochial school, but their view on abortion is 100% contrary to that of the Catholic church. I find this to be like one choosing their gender. If you want to be true to what these organizations are, then you must be 100% true to be one. You can't be a kinda Democrat or a kinda Catholic, just like you can't be a kinda male. I would go so far as to suggest that if one is devout to any religion, it is nearly impossible to be devout to any political party & vice versa.
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Luca
Master Statesman
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Post by Luca on May 5, 2019 15:45:53 GMT -8
I wouldn't define the terms so strictly. I would define a "Democrat" as somebody who is registered as a Democrat and generally votes that way. There are Democratic and Republican platforms but I don't know what percent of registered voters buy into those policies 100% down the line.
I'm not so sure about your definition of "Catholic" either. I was born and raised a Catholic and attended 21 years of Catholic schools, but I don't agree with every stance that the Vatican takes. I consider myself - perhaps mistakenly - a Catholic but I think there should be women priests and I don't support the Church stance on immigration, even though the point man on the issue in America is an archbishop who is a childhood friend of mine.
I don't think you have to be a purist to claim allegiance to a cause.........Luca
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on May 5, 2019 20:24:13 GMT -8
I agree you don't have to be a purist to claim allegiance, but you need to meet the criteria of what something is in order to actually be it. Most people who call themselves Catholic (or Muslim or other faiths) really aren't, they just like some of the things the Catholic (or other) faiths are about. If stances on positions didn't matter, then why should an organization have stances on anything?
I am a registered Republican, I don't believe I have ever voted for a Democrat if given an alternative, yet I am not a Republican. I chose to register in that party in an effort to vote in their primaries and influence their positions. However, there are just way too many differences between the Republican platform & my personal opinions that I am not willing to budge on. So I'm not really a Republican.
I too was born & raised Catholic, with 16 years of parochial schooling. As far as religions, my beliefs line up closer to Catholicism than any other religion. However, I currently do not follow the tenants of Catholicism, so if i was to just label myself Catholic based on my history and what I most closely identify with, I would be doing a disservice to the faith and to those true believers who are devout Catholics (in my opinion).
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
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Post by MDDad on May 5, 2019 21:47:50 GMT -8
I think all you guys are overanalyzing the two words. In simplest terms:
A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He came to earth in human form and died for our sins, and who tries as best he can to live his life in accordance with His teachings.
A Democrat is someone who is clinically mentally retarded.
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
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Post by Credo on May 5, 2019 21:56:33 GMT -8
I hate to say this, but sometimes this board reminds me of TOB. Some of the generalizations are of the type I might expect to see over there. How can we say that “Democrats don’t know Christianity“ when I’m sure that some of the most Christian people we know are certainly Democrats? How can we say that “Democrats are anti-Christian“ when so many of them are devout Catholics and Protestants and Episcopalians and so on? Obviously some don’t understand Christianity and some are anti-Christian, but the same can be said for some conservatives. What I think many of us are referring to are the more visible, opportunistic and self anointed intellectuals of the Democratic Party. Christianity is a pretty big tent and you can have all sorts of political opinions while remaining within the tent. ...........Luca Valid points. Yes, I think the comments about anti-Christian attitudes among Democrats refer to the elected politicians in Congress and in a number of states, as well as the DNC leadership. I'd bet much of the rank-and-file Democrat voters don't agree with the radical move of the party to the Left, but for various reasons (habit, emotion, differences in policy) could never vote Republican.
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tarmac
Senior Statesman
Posts: 859
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Post by tarmac on May 6, 2019 9:33:49 GMT -8
Like this. www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/5/3/1855095/-Did-Opus-Dei-Teach-A-G-Barr-to-Puts-Away-His-ScruplesDid Opus Dei Teach A.G. Barr to ‘Puts Away His Scruples’? But recently, we learned that the current Attorney General has some links with highly secretive, ultra-conservative Catholic group Opus Dei. This relationship may help explain his apparent “ends justifies the means” strategy. Just to recap, Opus Dei, literally meaning, "The Work of God" was founded in Spain 1928 by the priest Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer. He based its mission upon the idea that lay Catholics could achieve holiness without entering a religious order. It is a personal prelature – meaning that, unlike a diocese, is not territorial but is a combination of laity, clergy and prelates who undertake specific pastoral activities. It is known for recruiting very influential members, especially those simpatico with culturally conservative causes. To describe its many wealthy and powerful leaders as economic royalists would be an understatement. It is no accident that Opus Dei coalesced in Franco's Spain. Even today rumors and stories persist about its involvement with Francisco Franco's forces from 1936 through 1939. =snip=
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tarmac
Senior Statesman
Posts: 859
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Post by tarmac on May 6, 2019 13:34:07 GMT -8
www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/progressive-groups-move-oust-vocal-anti-abortion-democrat-congress-n1002421?cid=sm_npd_ms_tw_maProgressive groups move to oust anti-abortion (Pro-Life) Democrat from Congress It's round two of an intraparty struggle that pits pro-abortion rights groups against the campaign arm of House Democrats in a key congressional primary.
WASHINGTON — Progressives failed to oust one of the last anti-abortion Democrats in Congress last year, but are coming back faster and harder this time around, setting up an extraordinary intraparty clash.
On Monday, EMILY's List, MoveOn, NARAL Pro-Choice America, Planned Parenthood Action Fund, the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, and Democracy for America announced support for Marie Newman, who is once again challenging Rep. Dan Lipinski, D-Ill., for his suburban Chicago district.
Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, D-N.Y., also recently endorsed Newman, becoming the first presidential candidate to do so.
=snip=
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on Jul 28, 2024 18:35:07 GMT -8
Figured we broached this subject once a while back. While this below is not really topical per se, it does touch on a few things the Olympics opening ceremony did. The letter from the recently excommunicated archbishop seemed spot on in terms of the Christian values under attack. I'm not thrilled he went into big Mike country though. So what exactly is a schism, and does it diminish his opinion? x.com/MJTruthUltra/status/1817709932117926256?t=s2VthTG3mQlUsqJ9DMYVng&s=19
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