Bick
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Post by Bick on Apr 8, 2019 12:01:30 GMT -8
I think early in this conversation, an argument was made that a baby that would be viable out of the womb (including an incubator), has the right to life, and should not be terminated under any circumstance...from a legal perspective. Introducing morality into this subject adds the element of "religion", and there's little to no hope, rightfully so IMO, of coming to a consensus. I'm sure there are instances where I'd be wrong, but I think attempting to legislate morality is damn near impossible given so many beliefs out there.
In a sense, Sharia law does just that. But then there's that whole separation of church and state thing that has seemed to work pretty well for us so far.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Apr 8, 2019 22:44:37 GMT -8
In case anyone was wondering (and even if you could care less) what Catholic moral teaching says about one of the topics mentioned above: Artificial means of conception (e.g., in vitro fertilization) that separate conception from sex are morally disordered, putting ourselves in the place of God as the creator and author of life. Same holds for the opposite, which is why the Catholic Church has always opposed the use of artificial contraception.
That being said, any such unborn child conceived artificially is no less human than any other and has the absolute right to life.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Apr 9, 2019 5:37:11 GMT -8
I knew I had heard something like this before. Abstinence was the only acceptable method of birth control, and it would follow that artificial / technologically enhanced methods of birthing children would also be forbidden.
Where does the church stand regarding technological advances for delivering babies and keeping them alive, as opposed to leaving their mortality entirely in God's hands?
I'm also interested to know which scripture provides the authority for this interpretation. I was raised Catholic, but would most likely be considered a CINO.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Apr 9, 2019 10:20:19 GMT -8
I think any solution that isn't socially acceptable will, by definition, not be implemented. So long as each side argues from different platforms (abortion from “liberty” and life from “life”), I don’t expect any solution to be implemented. in my opinion, our energy would be better spent trying to get either side to see it from the other’s perspective instead of trying to get the other side to cave. once either side understands the other side’s intent, THEN we might get around to figuring out a solution... we are each, currently, too enmeshed in “disproving” the other, disparaging the other, or digging in our heels (yes, as I do) to achieve anything meaningful.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Apr 9, 2019 10:32:14 GMT -8
I knew I had heard something like this before. Abstinence was the only acceptable method of birth control, and it would follow that artificial / technologically enhanced methods of birthing children would also be forbidden. Where does the church stand regarding technological advances for delivering babies and keeping them alive, as opposed to leaving their mortality entirely in God's hands? I'm also interested to know which scripture provides the authority for this interpretation. I was raised Catholic, but would most likely be considered a CINO. I’m not Catholic, not even in name only... sort of a NECINO (not even Catholic in name only), and I have historically disagreed with the C-Church’s proscription against (actual) birth control (as opposed to using an abortofacient as birth control). However, whether from the Catholics or not, I do agree with Credo’s statement “...any such child conceived artificially is no less huma than any other and has the absolute right to life.” Even though I still do not know what (other) options to offer the barren. My wife was an abstinence educator for Catholic Social Services some years back. She was repulsed at the level of ignorance posessed by local, public and private High School students on matters of reproduction, and particularly birth control. She would teach abstinence is the only 100% solution to prevent pregnancy, and the students (or many of them) were taken aback by that. I am not aware of the Catholic Church having a position on delivery technologies, but maybe Credo (or someone else) is more in tune than I.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on May 1, 2019 19:55:12 GMT -8
I don't even know how to react to this comment that was made a Democratic politician during a recent debate on an abortion ban that was passed in Alabama.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on May 2, 2019 13:19:22 GMT -8
John Rogers statement reveals a lack of faith in the concept of free will. He believes that if you are born into bad circumstances, you will end up as a drag on society. Not that you might or that the path to lead a good life might be a bit tougher, but that you will without exception, be a criminal. In his mind, people have no choice or responsibility for their actions, they are just a byproduct of their circumstances.
He could not be more wrong.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on May 6, 2019 19:50:20 GMT -8
Just imagine if this was a Republican elected official trying to dox environmental protesters.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 7, 2019 7:04:51 GMT -8
John Rogers statement reveals a lack of faith in the concept of free will. He believes that if you are born into bad circumstances, you will end up as a drag on society. Not that you might or that the path to lead a good life might be a bit tougher, but that you will without exception, be a criminal. In his mind, people have no choice or responsibility for their actions, they are just a byproduct of their circumstances. He could not be more wrong. I submit, if the child is given a choice, between being unwanted or killed, that child will almost always choose life... even if they are not wanted.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on May 8, 2019 7:03:18 GMT -8
John Rogers statement reveals a lack of faith in the concept of free will. He believes that if you are born into bad circumstances, you will end up as a drag on society. Not that you might or that the path to lead a good life might be a bit tougher, but that you will without exception, be a criminal. In his mind, people have no choice or responsibility for their actions, they are just a byproduct of their circumstances. He could not be more wrong. Take it a step further. If you can abort a newborn because of some perceived inconvenience, why not a 6 month old? What's the difference?
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 8, 2019 7:42:41 GMT -8
John Rogers statement reveals a lack of faith in the concept of free will. He believes that if you are born into bad circumstances, you will end up as a drag on society. Not that you might or that the path to lead a good life might be a bit tougher, but that you will without exception, be a criminal. In his mind, people have no choice or responsibility for their actions, they are just a byproduct of their circumstances. He could not be more wrong. Take it a step further. If you can abort a newborn because of some perceived inconvenience, why not a 6 month old? What's the difference? To us, there is no difference. but pro-abortionists have redefined the unborn as a more impersonal “fetus” (or, in the case of people like Fordama, “zygote”) to avoid recognizing the obvious and scientific fact that the unborn child is both “living” and “human.” if they dont don’t call the unborn “child,” they want to believe they are absolved of any consequence for killing him or her.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 8, 2019 8:09:16 GMT -8
but pro-abortionists have redefined the unborn as a more impersonal “fetus” ( or, in the case of people like Fordama, “zygote”) to avoid recognizing the obvious and scientific fact that the unborn child is both “living” and “human.” Thank God Fordama only teaches addition and subtraction, and not biology. Luca can expound on this better than I can, but a zygote is a fertilized egg. As soon as it divides for the first time, it is no longer a zygote. Rather it is an embryo proceeding through the morula, blastula, gastrula and neurula stages on its way to becoming a child. Here's what it looks like at seven weeks, or only halfway through the first trimester. If that's not a child, I don't know what it is.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 8, 2019 9:46:45 GMT -8
He has also used the terms “embryo,” and “blastula” as I recall: I believe he will use any term other than “child” to refer to ... well, a pre-born child
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 8, 2019 9:50:36 GMT -8
Well, at least embryo is technically correct. But the fetus is long past the blastula stage before the mother even knows she's pregnant.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on May 8, 2019 10:12:55 GMT -8
Is the ultimate end game here to replace God with the state thru the de-valuation of human life by virtue of abortion? If that truly is the thinking, is there any written manifesto of sorts that supports that thinking?
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