|
Post by vilepagan on Sept 2, 2021 2:46:37 GMT -8
2. By the looks of this crowd, however, none of these women are in much danger of getting pregnant by natural means. I'm sorry if that's unkind, but.... I've also noticed that it's rarely a mob of supermodels protesting for the right to abortion. It's always a flock of hefty babes that will probably never have to face that choice. Have you also noticed that all of the people who wail about abortion here will never have to face that choice either? I guess if those women don't really have a meaningful opinion because of their looks, neither does anyone here.
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,816
|
Post by MDDad on Sept 2, 2021 6:24:55 GMT -8
I guess if those women don't really have a meaningful opinion because of their looks, neither does anyone here. I guess you're right when it comes to yourself and others who live your sexual lifestyle. But any man who has ever had the joy of starting a life, or raising the child after it's born, absolutely has not only the right to an opinion, but to shout it from the rooftops. You are the one who arguably doesn't have that right, since you've never participated in the process or known the joy of the result.
|
|
davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
|
Post by davidsf on Sept 2, 2021 7:40:40 GMT -8
I guess if those women don't really have a meaningful opinion because of their looks, neither does anyone here. I guess you're right when it comes to yourself and others who live your sexual lifestyle. But any man who has ever had the joy of starting a life, or raising the child after it's born, absolutely has not only the right to an opinion, but to shout it from the rooftops. You are the one who arguably doesn't have that right, since you've never participated in the process or known the joy of the result. or the uninhibited love, both physical and emotional love...real love... of a woman.
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,816
|
Post by MDDad on Sept 2, 2021 7:48:59 GMT -8
I think loving a woman is not relevant to this point. It's the notion that a man who is emotionally connected to a life he's started has no right to opine on a woman's unilateral decision about ending that life. I discount the opinions of gay men on this subject, just as I think they should discount my opinions on the joys of gay anal sex.
|
|
|
Post by vilepagan on Sept 2, 2021 7:50:12 GMT -8
I guess if those women don't really have a meaningful opinion because of their looks, neither does anyone here. But any man who has ever had the joy of starting a life, or raising the child after it's born, absolutely has not only the right to an opinion, but to shout it from the rooftops. But not ugly women...got it.
|
|
|
Post by vilepagan on Sept 2, 2021 7:55:09 GMT -8
It's the notion that a man who is emotionally connected to a life he's started has no right to opine on a woman's unilateral decision about ending that life. For the record, that notion was one you created yourself...I want any man who contributed to creating that life to have a say in whether or not the woman gets an abortion...just that the final decision be hers, and that the government isn't at all involved. Note that doesn't include any of you with any abortion cases outside your immediate family. You or I should have no say if Jane Doe wants an abortion and our opinions shouldn't matter much.
|
|
davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
|
Post by davidsf on Sept 2, 2021 9:39:28 GMT -8
I think loving a woman is not relevant to this point. It's the notion that a man who is emotionally connected to a life he's started has no right to opine on a woman's unilateral decision about ending that life. I discount the opinions of gay men on this subject, just as I think they should discount my opinions on the joys of gay anal sex. you ended your statement with "...since you've never participated in the process or known the joy of the result." That was the piece to which I'm added the addendum, "or the uninhibited love, both physical and emotional love...real love... of a woman." and I'm not concerned with whether or not you consider it pertinent.
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,816
|
Post by MDDad on Sept 2, 2021 11:52:47 GMT -8
and I'm not concerned with whether or not you consider it pertinent. Dave, with respect, more and more every day you seem concerned only with your opinions and those that agree with you and you write off everyone else. Do you need to get laid more?
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,902
Member is Online
|
Post by Bick on Sept 3, 2021 4:34:38 GMT -8
I think loving a woman is not relevant to this point. It's the notion that a man who is emotionally connected to a life he's started has no right to opine on a woman's unilateral decision about ending that life. I discount the opinions of gay men on this subject, just as I think they should discount my opinions on the joys of gay anal sex. I think the notion that anyone would have no right to opine about anything is ludicrous. Isn't the issue really a function of the power of choice? In this case, when does a woman no longer have the choice? Should a man, who bears no burden whatsoever for the consequence of the choice, be allowed to impose his will on the woman who does?
|
|
davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
|
Post by davidsf on Sept 3, 2021 5:22:42 GMT -8
I think loving a woman is not relevant to this point. It's the notion that a man who is emotionally connected to a life he's started has no right to opine on a woman's unilateral decision about ending that life. I discount the opinions of gay men on this subject, just as I think they should discount my opinions on the joys of gay anal sex. I think the notion that anyone would have no right to opine about anything is ludicrous. Isn't the issue really a function of the power of choice? In this case, when does a woman no longer have the choice? Should a man, who bears no burden whatsoever for the consequence of the choice, be allowed to impose his will on the woman who does? You have conflated several issues here, in my opinion, erroneously: 1. No one has said Snowflake doesn't have a right. What MDDad said, and with which I agree, is, he discounts an opinion from a man who will never face that decision, personally. 2. The issue for liberals is freedom of choice. That puts them in opposition to conservatives whom generally see it as an issue of life. The two sides will never see eye to eye because each believes (or at least states even if they don't believe) the priority of their perspective. I have come to believe "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are listed in order of importance, but of course that best suits my perspective. 3. If you're talking legally, there is not a well-defined point past which a woman no longer has a choice. If you're talking morally, that point is conception. 4. Are you asking about "the consequence of the choice" to have unprotected sex? BOTH partners should bear those consequence (although, admittedly, we as a society are still lopsided in that equation). But you're probably talking about the consequence of the choice to have an abortion; and unfortunately, other than the man might be forced to pay for it, physiologically and emotionally, only the woman bears that consequence... which is something about which most pro-abortionists won't discuss. Insofar as whether or not the man should "impose his will" on the woman, no, of course not. However, at minimum, the man should be involved in the decision AND the court should appoint a Guardian ad Litum to represent the rights and liberties (if not the life) of the unborn child.
|
|
|
Post by mrright on Sept 3, 2021 5:26:25 GMT -8
whose body is the baby?
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,816
|
Post by MDDad on Sept 3, 2021 6:26:07 GMT -8
Should a man, who bears no burden whatsoever for the consequence of the choice, be allowed to impose his will on the woman who does? I disagree with your premise, but to paraphrase Bill Clinton, I guess it depends on what your definition of a man is. When a man impregnates a woman, I think he assumes the responsibility of loving, raising and financially supporting that child until it becomes an adult. (I can't call it a "burden" when it's one of the greatest joys in life.) If he doesn't, he's significantly less than a man, and to call him a selfish child is being too kind. I don't think he should ever be allowed to impose his will on the woman, but neither should she be allowed to unilaterally impose her will on him. And in this entire wrenching scenario, who represents the child? Does it not also deserve a voice?
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,902
Member is Online
|
Post by Bick on Sept 3, 2021 8:07:39 GMT -8
Carrying a child to term is no burden a man gets to "enjoy".
Same issue as always regarding the child. When does the child have a right to live?
One way or another, the parenting you're referring to comes after the fact, and I agree with those assessments as they are consistent with my values.
|
|
davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
|
Post by davidsf on Sept 3, 2021 9:55:50 GMT -8
Carrying a child to term is no burden a man gets to "enjoy".Same issue as always regarding the child. When does the child have a right to live?One way or another, the parenting you're referring to comes after the fact, and I agree with those assessments as they are consistent with my values. A child is a living human being from conception. Human rights mandates their needs/rights be considered from that point. The Declaration of Independence mandates from that point, they have a right to life, liberty, and a pursuit of happiness. The U.S. Constitution establishes they will not be deprived of [their rights] without due process of law.
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,902
Member is Online
|
Post by Bick on Sept 3, 2021 10:08:26 GMT -8
I think the notion that anyone would have no right to opine about anything is ludicrous. Isn't the issue really a function of the power of choice? In this case, when does a woman no longer have the choice? Should a man, who bears no burden whatsoever for the consequence of the choice, be allowed to impose his will on the woman who does? You have conflated several issues here, in my opinion, erroneously: 1. No one has said Snowflake doesn't have a right. What MDDad said, and with which I agree, is, he discounts an opinion from a man who will never face that decision, personally. 2. The issue for liberals is freedom of choice. That puts them in opposition to conservatives whom generally see it as an issue of life. The two sides will never see eye to eye because each believes (or at least states even if they don't believe) the priority of their perspective. I have come to believe "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are listed in order of importance, but of course that best suits my perspective. 3. If you're talking legally, there is not a well-defined point past which a woman no longer has a choice. If you're talking morally, that point is conception. 4. Are you asking about "the consequence of the choice" to have unprotected sex? BOTH partners should bear those consequence (although, admittedly, we as a society are still lopsided in that equation). But you're probably talking about the consequence of the choice to have an abortion; and unfortunately, other than the man might be forced to pay for it, physiologically and emotionally, only the woman bears that consequence... which is something about which most pro-abortionists won't discuss. Insofar as whether or not the man should "impose his will" on the woman, no, of course not. However, at minimum, the man should be involved in the decision AND the court should appoint a Guardian ad Litum to represent the rights and liberties (if not the life) of the unborn child. 1. So the discussion is about who has the right to discount another's opinion. Isn't that really a function of objectivity? 2. Both sides use the freedom of choice argument as it fits their perspective. Abortion & mass vaccination are examples of this. And of course, both sides will claim "but this is different". 3. Yes, legally. Trying to use morality on a population of 300+ million would be like herding cats. This really has become the basis for my belief that we're too big, and too far apart to be able to co-exist with the other side. 4. Consequence of choice I was referring to was post-conception, and did not include what I consider to be the far less important financial considerations. The focus, IMO, should be on the woman who bears the physiological and emotional consequence.
|
|