not4u13
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Post by not4u13 on Jun 23, 2019 7:26:05 GMT -8
... Long story, long, I think legalizing abortion has had a catastrophic impact on our country. It definitely has, including a disastrous impact, emotionally and sometimes even physically, on the woman who kills her child. this is something the pro-abortion crowd will not talk about. Yes. That's exactly what I mean. Whatever the reason, the woman holds the right. No third party should have the right to decide. Of course, once a pregnancy pushes into the third trimester I have a lot of issues with an abortion. By then, the woman has had plenty of chances to choose at a time when the risks are far lower. I don't think the fetal heartbeat bills give the woman that chance to make a choice. They often won't know they are even pregnant until later. |
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not4u13
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Post by not4u13 on Jun 23, 2019 7:33:44 GMT -8
The increase in unwanted pregnancies accelerated after Wade. I believe that was a result of providing a safety net for the consequence of having sex outside of marriage. If you believe in the notion that all activity is a function of incentive, or risk v reward, the consequence of an unwanted pregnancy was greatly reduced, and that led to females, primarily, becoming less judicious about their sexual behavior. The result, more unwanted pregnancies that are resolved by either abortion or welfare to single moms. It's pretty well documented what happens to kids of single moms, so I won't get into that consequence. What used to be the hope of a good night kiss at the end of a first date, has morphed into how many minutes before sex on the first date... assuming it's even a "date". I think this is VERY unhealthy, for both the young man's respect toward females, and the female feeling of self worth. I think we both come from a Hispanic background, and agree with you to an extent that once married, there are many men that become abusive. I don't know how widespread it is / was, but I can say with integrity it wasn't widespread or tolerated in my family. I know of 1 guy that married my aunt, and another that married a cousin. Both died in their 40s. One from alcoholism, the other at the hand of my cousin who took exception to his sister being hit. Long story, long, I think legalizing abortion has had a catastrophic impact on our country. I very much disagree. Although I do think some take a cavalier attitude toward sex, abortion is certainly neither painless nor convenient. It's not the method most would (or do) choose as the primary method of birth control. I believe the reason for the increase in the statistic is not because it changed the attitude about sex, it's because women no longer had to hide. While it is a dramatization and just a movie, the scene in Dirty Dancing of the botched abortion is a scene that played out many times across the country during those days and there are no records or statistics. Contrast that with the scene from another movie, Fast Times and Ridgemont High where the abortion was at a clinic. Both are movies but they depict the culture of the time. Both pregnancies resulted from a cavalier attitude toward sex, but the outcomes were quite different. That's what Roe v. Wade has done to this country. Allowed women to have a medical safe and effective medical procedure. |
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not4u13
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Post by not4u13 on Jun 23, 2019 7:37:56 GMT -8
Wow! Seriously? "Some lives are worth more than others." What makes this statement so absurd, is that only your way leads to the death of one of the two lives involved. In the pro-life policy both lives get to live. I'm curious what legal precedent of some lives being worth more than others is similar to abortion. I can only think of the death penalty, and the right to self defense as being some form of statute that supports that idea. There are several but yes, the death penalty is one. I cited another one earlier. No person can be forced to donate an organ, even if that donation is the only way to save the life of another and that donation will not have any lasting impact on the donor (e.g. bone marrow or blood). We also argue self defense often, which is to say that we give a person a pass to kill another person if they believe they or a member of their family will be killed. In all of these cases, one life is terminated and the other lives on. All by choice. All within the law. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jun 23, 2019 7:39:27 GMT -8
What do you mean by women no longer had to hide?
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not4u13
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Post by not4u13 on Jun 23, 2019 7:44:21 GMT -8
I'm sure that's what the rule book says, but man, that's pretty much an impossible sell to most Americans regardless of spirituality. I have alot of faith in Americans as a group and I can see a majority understanding & accepting the biological facts about intercourse. Since sodomy laws in most states have been repealed, there are plenty of sexual acts available for consenting adults to participate in if they 100% do not want children. It is actually extremely selfish to then demand to participate in the one particular act that can lead to procreation, but not be responsible for anything it creates. Imagine being told you can play on any golf course in the world, however, if you choose to play Pebble Beach and inadvertently hit a ball in the ocean, you must spend some time helping clean the ocean of pollutants. I know it is a silly analogy, but it is the exact same concept. Intercourse is the Pebble Beach of courses, unique and fantastic, with the potential of forcing you to step up to the responsibility of its consequences. And for those of you who know the joke "Kawasaki, Kawasaki!!" I understand this perspective but disagree with the premise. Given the fact that we are built to biologically desire sex, I can't see this argument playing out well across the world. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Jun 23, 2019 8:02:27 GMT -8
Imagine being told you can play on any golf course in the world, however, if you choose to play Pebble Beach and inadvertently hit a ball in the ocean, you must spend some time helping clean the ocean of pollutants. I know it is a silly analogy, but it is the exact same concept. Intercourse is the Pebble Beach of courses, unique and fantastic, with the potential of forcing you to step up to the responsibility of its consequences. Dude, if you're going to use a round of golf as an analogy for the consequences of sex, and you want it to have any relevance with the rest of us, you need to pick a course that costs less than $500 to play. |
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Jun 23, 2019 19:57:33 GMT -8
I understand this perspective but disagree with the premise. Given the fact that we are built to biologically desire sex, I can't see this argument playing out well across the world. If one takes the perspective that we are slaves to our desires, then it makes sense one would believe that not taking responsibility for the consequences of intercourse is acceptable. I have more faith in humanity than that. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jun 24, 2019 9:24:49 GMT -8
It definitely has, including a disastrous impact, emotionally and sometimes even physically, on the woman who kills her child. this is something the pro-abortion crowd will not talk about. Yes. That's exactly what I mean. Whatever the reason, the woman holds the right. No third party should have the right to decide. Of course, once a pregnancy pushes into the third trimester I have a lot of issues with an abortion. By then, the woman has had plenty of chances to choose at a time when the risks are far lower. I don't think the fetal heartbeat bills give the woman that chance to make a choice. They often won't know they are even pregnant until later. If you believe only the woman should have a vote, then we are not saying the same thing. to be clear, I believe (and advocate) that no child should be aborted, ever... for any reason. “Life of the mother” was likely known before having sex. “Rape or incest” while tragic, can be dealt with through counseling and grief therapy, killing the child because the father is a rapist can never be recovered. you are correct in saying the fetal heartbeat bills don’t give the woman a chance to make a choice, but I feel that is a choice she should not be making at all. To me, “choice” is something you do in deciding whether or not to have sex. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Jun 24, 2019 9:59:37 GMT -8
When it comes to the mother, I completely support "my body, my choice". But when it comes to her unborn child, "my body, my choice" should also apply to him. And since he has no voice, others must speak for his desire to live.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jun 24, 2019 10:39:30 GMT -8
When it comes to the mother, I completely support "my body, my choice". But when it comes to her unborn child, "my body, my choice" should also apply to him. And since he has no voice, others must speak for his desire to live. That's about as succinct an argument as I've seen. |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Jul 1, 2019 6:47:12 GMT -8
Not just a "clump of cells." Every Democrat running for 2020 is on the record saying that this can be killed at the will of the mother.
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not4u13
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Post by not4u13 on Jul 6, 2019 7:18:19 GMT -8
What do you mean by women no longer had to hide? I'm not sure I understand the question with respect to the quote that it was attached to. I think you know that it wasn't that long ago that becoming pregnant out of wedlock used to be such a public shame, women had to hide their bump and when that was no longer possible, they had to hide until after the baby was born. My Aunt fell into this category and my cousin discovered much later that she actually had a half sister. Women who had the means were able to do this. Others, not so much. Those who didn't have the support of their family often sought out illegal abortions to avoid the persecution. Women had very few reproductive rights and even fewer places to turn. The culture allowed most "fathers" to be nothing but sperm donors. They were often not held accountable for their share in the "fun". That's if the sex was consensual. We have learned much later in our history how Women have been victimized in many different ways. A woman does not give up the rights to her body simply because she is intoxicated and doesn't clearly decline sex, or if the woman invites sex but later changes her mind (even after intercourse has begun) or in any condition in between those. I know a lot of folks who still don't agree with this premise and think the choice is made much earlier (e.g. by the choice of dress or choice to drink in excess or choice to trust someone to drive her come, etc.). |
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not4u13
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Post by not4u13 on Jul 6, 2019 7:22:53 GMT -8
When it comes to the mother, I completely support "my body, my choice". But when it comes to her unborn child, "my body, my choice" should also apply to him. And since he has no voice, others must speak for his desire to live. I do believe the father should have a say in the matter, but that also means a commitment to the child they are asking to be brought into the world. If the woman doesn't want the baby and the father does, then after the birth of the child the woman should not have to take any responsibility for raising the child. Think surrogate mother in that case. All too often we think only of the act of sex and childbirth. I find a lot of the "pro-life" crowd doesn't seem to care much about what happens after birth. Well guess what. A single parent household, especially one where the parent is very young and not yet financially established, is going to need a LOT of public assistance. If we are going to force women to give birth then we are going to have to step up big time as a society to take care of all the resulting children. |
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not4u13
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Post by not4u13 on Jul 6, 2019 7:25:51 GMT -8
Yes. That's exactly what I mean. Whatever the reason, the woman holds the right. No third party should have the right to decide. Of course, once a pregnancy pushes into the third trimester I have a lot of issues with an abortion. By then, the woman has had plenty of chances to choose at a time when the risks are far lower. I don't think the fetal heartbeat bills give the woman that chance to make a choice. They often won't know they are even pregnant until later. If you believe only the woman should have a vote, then we are not saying the same thing. to be clear, I believe (and advocate) that no child should be aborted, ever... for any reason. “Life of the mother” was likely known before having sex. “Rape or incest” while tragic, can be dealt with through counseling and grief therapy, killing the child because the father is a rapist can never be recovered. you are correct in saying the fetal heartbeat bills don’t give the woman a chance to make a choice, but I feel that is a choice she should not be making at all. To me, “choice” is something you do in deciding whether or not to have sex. I respect your right to take this position, no matter how naive I believe it to be. There are just so many things wrong with the basic premise of the argument. That said, I also understand that this is very likely an integral part of your core belief system, which is not something anyone can alter or change on a public message board. Fortunately (for the sake of Women's reproductive rights) your views remain in the minority. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Jul 6, 2019 8:25:18 GMT -8
What do you mean by women no longer had to hide? I'm not sure I understand the question with respect to the quote that it was attached to. I think you know that it wasn't that long ago that becoming pregnant out of wedlock used to be such a public shame, women had to hide their bump and when that was no longer possible, they had to hide until after the baby was born. My Aunt fell into this category and my cousin discovered much later that she actually had a half sister. Women who had the means were able to do this. Others, not so much. Those who didn't have the support of their family often sought out illegal abortions to avoid the persecution. Women had very few reproductive rights and even fewer places to turn. The culture allowed most "fathers" to be nothing but sperm donors. They were often not held accountable for their share in the "fun". That's if the sex was consensual. We have learned much later in our history how Women have been victimized in many different ways. A woman does not give up the rights to her body simply because she is intoxicated and doesn't clearly decline sex, or if the woman invites sex but later changes her mind (even after intercourse has begun) or in any condition in between those. I know a lot of folks who still don't agree with this premise and think the choice is made much earlier (e.g. by the choice of dress or choice to drink in excess or choice to trust someone to drive her come, etc.). What era are you referring to that makes this relevant to today's expansion of later term abortions? |
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