MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Nov 17, 2019 22:41:22 GMT -8
The Founding Fathers couldn't string together two sentences without a reference to God or other Christian religious tenets. To say this country is a secular society is only half the story -- it was envisioned as a secular society designed and united along Christian principles, but without an official national religion.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 18, 2019 4:08:18 GMT -8
I mean that we live in a society where no religious belief is mandated, no religious belief is supported above any other (in theory), and no law supports a particular belief or faith or indeed any faith at all.
That's nice. The USSC once decided that black people were "property"...yet we don't follow that decision today. Supreme Court decisions change over time...so will this one.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Nov 18, 2019 19:47:01 GMT -8
And that's the society we live in today, thanks be to God. Repeatedly claiming that these various Christian business owners "refused to serve gays" based on their sexual preference alone will not make it true--because it isn't. In some case the plaintiffs had been previous customers of the same business. And here's the $64,000 question no one is asking: How would the business owner even have any knowledge of a potential customer's sexual preference? A heterosexual person could just as easily request a same-sex wedding cake or t-shirt for a friend or relative as could a homosexual.
In fact, I would challenge you to find just one instance in the past 40 years of a single business in America that refused to serve someone solely because of skin color, sexual preference, or religious belief. No business in that time (and perhaps even further) has ever said "you're black?", "you're gay?", "you're Muslim?"--we won't serve you here. Google all you want, I guarantee it hasn't happened.
Another point of clarification: the society you (and I) prefer in this regard is not more "orderly", it is more just. I would argue that justice is the highest virtue of civil society. Nazi Germany and the Jim Crow South were very "orderly", but not in the way that benefited everyone fairly. These were unjust systems that--happily--we have left behind.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 19, 2019 4:47:04 GMT -8
It is, but you want to change that.
So you keep saying, but that doesn't make it true either.
Sure, but I'm guessing that when two guys come in and want to get a cake for their wedding the cake shop owner probably will figure it out.
Here's a question for you...how do we know the cake-shop owner was being sincere when he said baking a cake for these guys would violate his religious beliefs? Is it important, or is the claim of religion enough to satisfy you?
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Nov 19, 2019 6:14:48 GMT -8
I mean that we live in a society where no religious belief is mandated, no religious belief is supported above any other (in theory), and no law supports a particular belief or faith or indeed any faith at all. That's nice. The USSC once decided that black people were "property"...yet we don't follow that decision today. Supreme Court decisions change over time...so will this one. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t... but, in the mean time, it is your perception that is out if step and your argument is defeated BECAUSE you are wrong for this period in time.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Nov 19, 2019 8:50:13 GMT -8
Here's a question for you...how do we know the cake-shop owner was being sincere when he said baking a cake for these guys would violate his religious beliefs? And here's some questions for you: How do we know the two guys were really gay? How do we know they were really getting married? How do we know they weren't Klingons or Romulans? Jesus Christ, man, at some point you have got to believe in the sincerity of those who disagree with you; they don't all lie with the intent to screw you under.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 19, 2019 12:12:29 GMT -8
Let's assume they are straight and not getting married...does that change anything? Would the baker be right to refuse them?
I'm not sure but I think we know that because these races are fictitious.
So you're ok with anyone claiming the religious exemption no matter how wild or crazy their religious claim?
BTW, I'm pretty sure the phrase is "screw you over"...not "under".
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Nov 19, 2019 12:24:33 GMT -8
No, he would have no religious justification for refusing them.
You're moving to the absurd extreme. I think a legitimate, respected, established religion with a 2,000-year history and 2 billion followers and written rules of behavior and acceptance is valid grounds. A cult or offshoot that advocates harmful acts like sexual mutilation or stoning to death is not. These cases have to be taken one at a time, and the damages to each side need to be considered.
I defer to your experience.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 19, 2019 14:00:25 GMT -8
Now that I can agree with.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Nov 19, 2019 19:24:35 GMT -8
No, he would have no religious justification for refusing them. I disagree. A baker should be able to refuse to bake a cake for straight people getting married for any number of reasons, including: a) He believes the concept of marriage is a sham; b) He believes it is sexist for a woman to take a mans name; c) He is against women who are not virgins wearing white on their wedding day; d) He slept with the bride and/or groom and knows they aren't committed to the marriage; e) He thinks the bride is just marrying the groom for his money; f) His wife cheated on him on their wedding night, so just the thought of weddings makes him anxious; e) The bride is his daughter and he is already paying through the nose for the wedding; f) He just doesn't want to bake a cake. His bakery, his cakes, his choice to bake a cake or not. Now when the day comes that customers are forced to go to specific shops for their goods & services, then you can make a case that the baker can't choose who he wants to serve. In a society where commerce involves the voluntary exchange of money for goods or services, both sides must be free to say "No Thanks".
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Nov 19, 2019 22:26:08 GMT -8
I disagree. A baker should be able to refuse to bake a cake for straight people getting married for any number of reasons, including: a) He believes the concept of marriage is a sham; b) He believes it is sexist for a woman to take a mans name; c) He is against women who are not virgins wearing white on their wedding day; d) He slept with the bride and/or groom and knows they aren't committed to the marriage; e) He thinks the bride is just marrying the groom for his money; f) His wife cheated on him on their wedding night, so just the thought of weddings makes him anxious; e) The bride is his daughter and he is already paying through the nose for the wedding; f) He just doesn't want to bake a cake. While all those reasons are pretty funny, none of them are backed by traditional Christian dogma. The refusal to celebrate a homosexual wedding is.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 20, 2019 3:33:51 GMT -8
A good thing we don't make our laws based on Christian dogma.
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Nov 20, 2019 5:08:28 GMT -8
The butcher, the baker, the chicken sandwich maker.... so you can close down whom you disagree with as well as make whomever do what you want them to do as we saw with the baker. Sorry people , but those whom fear the left are correct to do so,, it is a path to to·tal·i·tar·i·an·ism.How to Disunite America townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/2019/11/20/how-to-disunite-america-n2556749
This week, Chick-fil-A, the immensely popular Christian-owned chicken sandwich giant, caved to the cultural left. For years, the left targeted Chick-fil-A, dating back to the 2012 revelation that Chairman and CEO Dan Cathy supports traditional marriage -- and, horror of horrors, that charities given donations by Chick-fil-A support traditional marriage. This prompted paroxysms of outrage in the media, who quickly demanded that Chick-fil-A tow the Democratic Party line, despite the fact that then-President Barack Obama did not officially endorse same-sex marriage until May 2012. The rage of the cultural left led to unsuccessful boycotts -- Chick-fil-A's business expanded from $1 billion in 2001 to $5 billion in 2013 to $10.5 billion today -- but successful hijackings of local government. When the cultural left can't achieve what it wants through public mobilization, it simply uses the power of government to blackmail those it dislikes. So, despite the fact that Chick-fil-A had never discriminated against gay customers -- it would sell a chicken sandwich to anyone -- then-Boston Mayor Thomas Menino promised to ban the franchise from the city. Then-Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel quickly followed suit, pledging to support an alderman's plan to block Chick-fil-A from opening a restaurant at Chicago O'Hare Airport. San Antonio recently blocked Chick-fil-A from opening a restaurant at its airport, and the airport in Buffalo, New York, followed suit. San Jose, California, pledged not to renew Chick-fil-A's lease when it ran out.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 20, 2019 5:38:57 GMT -8
Free market economics is a path to totalitarianism? Who knew?
Sorry SK, but the "boycott" is all part of free market economics. It's called market pressure and it's what drives people to make better products more cheaply. If a lot of people object to some business practice on the part of one company or another they are perfectly within their rights to organize a boycott. The fact that you disagree with their boycott does not mean they are a bunch of fascists. If politicians join in you have a right to vote them out of office, impeach them or remove them however it may be appropriate to do so, but again, your claim of "totalitarianism" is totally without merit.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Nov 20, 2019 6:38:14 GMT -8
Oh bullshit. It's rule by mob activism from the leftist woke crowd, and the very thing that's driving the middle further right.
It's the same crap parents pull when they get a hair up their ass because their little Johnny can't be the starting quarterback.
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