davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Dec 11, 2019 7:33:58 GMT -8
Time to get the brain cells going. Use this space to discuss odd things we need to ponder.
FOR example:
So, there’s this Greek dude called Theseus, and he’s on a very long boat trip home. When his ship needs repair, they stop, replace a few rotten boards, and continue. Due to the particularily strenuous nature of this very long trip, several more of these stops for repairs are made, until, by the very end, not a single board from the original vessel remains.
Is this still the same vessel? If not, when did it cease to be?
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Dec 11, 2019 7:44:36 GMT -8
If you believe in assimilation, it's the same ship, only stronger.
If you subscribe to cultural identity, it's a different ship.
Melting pot v. Mixed salad
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Dec 11, 2019 7:54:39 GMT -8
I followed a similar tac: Each time repairs were made, new boards became part of the Ship, regardless of how ardently they might have wanted to identify as “new boards.”
I wonder if anyone has a different take, given that this paradox has been hotly contested by such philosophical luminaries as Plato, Hobbes, and Locke.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Dec 11, 2019 8:31:55 GMT -8
Do you have the other argument from any of the 3 luminaries? Would be interesting to get their take.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Dec 11, 2019 9:13:13 GMT -8
I'm a softy for old naval vessels, and I've always believed the essence of a ship doesn't lie in the boards and steel plates used to build her, but in something greater and more ethereal than hardware. So I guess I'm a melting pot guy, which is not necessarily a popular position in today's mixed salad America.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Dec 11, 2019 9:21:07 GMT -8
So, to paraphrase MDDad, it is still the same ship, but with new boards.
Right?
🤷🏻♂️
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Dec 11, 2019 9:24:16 GMT -8
Absolutely. You haven't replaced her soul or her essence by replacing even ALL her boards.
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slk230
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Post by slk230 on Dec 11, 2019 9:26:49 GMT -8
If Trump was convicted in the Senate ( I know that will not happen) could he run in the fall election?
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Dec 11, 2019 9:32:47 GMT -8
Absolutely. You haven't replaced her soul or her essence by replacing even ALL her boards. Conversely, if you identified each board as its own unique identity, you can make the argument that it is no longer the same ship. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Dec 11, 2019 10:40:19 GMT -8
True, but if you received a kidney transplant, wouldn't you still be Bick? Or even a new kidney, lung, heart and part of a liver? I like to think we are more than the sum of our organs, and a ship is the same.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Dec 11, 2019 10:47:44 GMT -8
True, but if you received a kidney transplant, wouldn't you still be Bick? Or even a new kidney, lung, heart and part of a liver? I like to think we are more than the sum of our organs, and a ship is the same. That’s the essence of this question... IF (note the condition) one believes replacing all of Bicks organs and supporting structures, a new person exists in place of Bick, at what point in all those replacements did Bick stop and Bick 1 begin? |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Dec 11, 2019 10:55:57 GMT -8
If Trump was convicted in the Senate ( I know that will not happen) could he run in the fall election? U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 3 (in relevant part) However, Congress has, in the past, treated this as two separate deliberations: One to convict on the Articles of impeachment and a second to decide whether or it he can ever run again ... BUT, the only two presidents to actually be impeached (Jackson and Clinton) were both acquitted so this has not been tested with presidents. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Dec 11, 2019 11:05:07 GMT -8
You guys are setting me up for a scarecrow slam, but here goes anyway...
If my new organs had a mind of their own - yes RSM, one of them often did despite the objections of the bigger one - then you could argue that the essence of the original me would cease to exist.
But organs don't think... The brain is the thing that IS the essence of the organism.
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Dec 11, 2019 11:05:59 GMT -8
I'm a softy for old navels, So I guess I'm a melting pot belly guy, which is not necessarily a popular position today.    |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Dec 11, 2019 16:30:48 GMT -8
Do you have the other argument from any of the 3 luminaries? Would be interesting to get their take. This is the most complete treatment of the arguments at play. It also restates The Ship of Theseus paradox, adding an additional consideration which I think makes it a different argument... nonetheless From the University of Colorado |
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