davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Dec 11, 2019 16:32:47 GMT -8
Maybe that’s enough if the Ship of Theseus...
What about this one:
Pinocchio says “My nose will grow after I finish this sentence”
Does it?
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Dec 11, 2019 20:05:23 GMT -8
Before we go to Pinocchio, the ship of Theseus is analogous to a river. A river has water running through it, but it is always different water. The specific water doesn't make it a river, the location does.
For example, if you took water out of the bottom of the Grand canyon, it would be Colorado River Water. However, if you go downstream a bit, that same water then becomes Lake Mead water. Get past Hoover dam & that same water is now once again Colorado river water. Then Lake Havasu water, back to Colorado River water, and so on. So the answer is the parts don't define the sum, the sum defines the parts.
Okay, now for our puppet friend. His nose does not grow, because he wasn't lying, he was mistaken. His nose only grows when he lies, not when he is incorrect. Despite what liberals contend, being wrong about something is different than telling a lie.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Dec 11, 2019 20:23:18 GMT -8
Well, he did make an affirmative statement: “...my nose will grow.”
No indication of guessing or possibility, no equivocation at all... just “my nose will grow.
Two possibilities:
1. He is lying and his nose grows which means he did not lie
2. He wasn’t lying but for some reason his nose grew so ...
From those two possibilities, his nose, er... does ... or does not grow.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Dec 11, 2019 21:05:57 GMT -8
....by the very end, not a single board from the original vessel remains. Is this still the same vessel? If not, when did it cease to be? Is it Bruce Jenner? |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Dec 11, 2019 22:27:10 GMT -8
....by the very end, not a single board from the original vessel remains. Is this still the same vessel? If not, when did it cease to be? Is it Bruce Jenner? No, Bruce Jenner still has one original board. It's between his legs. |
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Post by ProfessorFate on Dec 12, 2019 0:51:52 GMT -8
Just how do you know that it's still there?
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Dec 12, 2019 6:26:26 GMT -8
Before we go to Pinocchio, the ship of Theseus is analogous to a river. A river has water running through it, but it is always different water. The specific water doesn't make it a river, the location does. For example, if you took water out of the bottom of the Grand canyon, it would be Colorado River Water. However, if you go downstream a bit, that same water then becomes Lake Mead water. Get past Hoover dam & that same water is now once again Colorado river water. Then Lake Havasu water, back to Colorado River water, and so on. So the answer is the parts don't define the sum, the sum defines the parts. Wouldn't the location of the river be known as the river bed? In that case, it would remain the same whether or not it contained water. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Dec 12, 2019 9:19:58 GMT -8
Just how do you know that it's still there? It's been reported in the media several times, especially with Bruce considering reversing lanes again. And RSM personally confirmed it. |
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Dec 12, 2019 9:48:12 GMT -8
Just how do you know that it's still there? It's been reported in the media several times, especially with Bruce considering reversing lanes again. And RSM personally confirmed it. Yes, I personally saw a photograph of MDDad holding it. While it was still attached. Both Bruce & MDDad were smiling. |
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Dec 12, 2019 10:02:07 GMT -8
Before we go to Pinocchio, the ship of Theseus is analogous to a river. A river has water running through it, but it is always different water. The specific water doesn't make it a river, the location does. For example, if you took water out of the bottom of the Grand canyon, it would be Colorado River Water. However, if you go downstream a bit, that same water then becomes Lake Mead water. Get past Hoover dam & that same water is now once again Colorado river water. Then Lake Havasu water, back to Colorado River water, and so on. So the answer is the parts don't define the sum, the sum defines the parts. Wouldn't the location of the river be known as the river bed? In that case, it would remain the same whether or not it contained water. Yes, the location of the river & the river bed are the same. However, If there is no water in it, it is no longer called a river, but instead a riverbed or a dry creek or something along those lines. Once water returns, as new water from else where flows through the area, it again becomes the "X" river even though it is different water. Lake Elsinore has dried up many times, the last being in the early 1960's. When there is no water, it is a dry lakebed. When there is water, it once again is Lake Elsinore, even though the water that makes it Lake Elsinore is different water than it had been in previous years. Like the ship, the parts are different, but the entity is the same. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Dec 12, 2019 10:31:34 GMT -8
Taking this discussion to it's absurd micro-extreme, we all have millions of atoms and molecules entering and leaving our physical structure every second. So while our "parts" are interchanging all the time, we're still the same person -- just as the U.S.S. Arizona is still the Arizona, despite the fact that most of its "boards" have been blown to smithereens, and replacing all the windows in the Empire State Building would not make it something other than what it has always been. There is value in an identity, be it a person, a river, a ship or an iconic skyscraper, that goes beyond its components, and it endures even when those components are replaced. Maybe it's what some people call a soul.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Dec 12, 2019 10:55:53 GMT -8
Wouldn't the location of the river be known as the river bed? In that case, it would remain the same whether or not it contained water. Yes, the location of the river & the river bed are the same. However, If there is no water in it, it is no longer called a river, but instead a riverbed or a dry creek or something along those lines. Once water returns, as new water from else where flows through the area, it again becomes the "X" river even though it is different water. Lake Elsinore has dried up many times, the last being in the early 1960's. When there is no water, it is a dry lakebed. When there is water, it once again is Lake Elsinore, even though the water that makes it Lake Elsinore is different water than it had been in previous years. Like the ship, the parts are different, but the entity is the same. I'm struggling with seeing the river / lake analogy to the ship...especially if it disappears. Using the ship analogy, if it were turned to ashes in a fire, it would cease to exist even if rebuilt. But if a lake was replenished with water, it would still be X lake. |
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Dec 12, 2019 14:21:18 GMT -8
Well, maybe it isn't a perfect analogy...
If the lake is dry, but the lake bed is still there, that means one component of Lake "X" still exists. By adding the water back, we have all the components back together to have a complete & functioning "Lake X".
So if the boat burns completely, then yes, it would cease to exist. However, if any of its components survived and the remaining portions were built around it, one could say it was the same ship, just refurbished. Kind of like when they tear a home down completely except for one wall in order to make the construction count as a remodel instead of new construction.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Dec 12, 2019 14:45:41 GMT -8
Well, maybe it isn't a perfect analogy... If the lake is dry, but the lake bed is still there, that means one component of Lake "X" still exists. By adding the water back, we have all the components back together to have a complete & functioning "Lake X". So if the boat burns completely, then yes, it would cease to exist. However, if any of its components survived and the remaining portions were built around it, one could say it was the same ship, just refurbished. Kind of like when they tear a home down completely except for one wall in order to make the construction count as a remodel instead of new construction. When Lake Elsinore dried up... and when Lake Elsinore overflowed... it was still called Lake Elsinore by, well, everyone. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Sept 14, 2021 8:31:40 GMT -8
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