Bick
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Post by Bick on Mar 25, 2019 21:39:52 GMT -8
Oh hell yes. Honest, OBJECTIVE, friendly fire is not only absolutely necessary, it is the foundation of our country.
I also think there will be a lean toward the mirror image of the other board. I think most of us are a competitive bunch, and our trophies are often the spoken, or unspoken I told-you-so's. The key difference I've seen here is the acknowledgement of a point made that was never conferred from the other board, and the absence of the malice toward posters here with differing takes.
The political figures here, when ridiculed, are primarily done with a focus on their position(s)...and not the person(s) themselves. Except for one. President Trump. WHO he was / is, his style, persona, dominates the discussion v. his efforts towards bettering our country. And those efforts are the ones that deserve our critical-thinking debate - just like the ones that went on some 250 years ago.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Mar 26, 2019 8:07:57 GMT -8
Trump has never been abundantly clear what he wants and we know the electorate is generally uninformed. Most people do want better border security and I've always been for strategically placed barriers, but Trump has long campaigned on wanting an impenetrable barrier along the entire border. He's going to have to do a lot more work to get people to believe he wants anything less than that. I'm not even convinced that Trump himself has backed off, but I do believe he has softened his approach, mostly because he now understands he will never get what he wants unless he changes what he says. Trump is a liar and con man. He has proven that with his many business dealings over the years, including Atlantic City where he promised to build a parking garage but never did. He says whatever he thinks he needs to, in order to gain an agreement, then he will do whatever he wants after he gets the money. You can trust one thing about Trump, he will do whatever Trump wants. If he wants support, he is going to have to come out and be very specific with what he intends to do with the money. Where he wants a barrier and what kind of barrier. Where he wants to improve electronic surveillance and what exactly that means. What is he going to do differently at border crossings. How is he going to address asylum seekers differently than he is today. How will his plan curb drug ans sex trade trafficking. He won't do any of those things because he doesn't want to be held accountable for carrying out a specific plan. He wants the money to do whatever he thinks he should do and everyone else just needs to shut up and let him do it. Well, speaking of being held accountable, look at his campaign promise that Mexico will pay for the wall. We even have well intended people right here in this community still excoriating him for not keeping that promise. i don’t like him as a human being, either, but I appreciate what he is trying to do despite sometimes overwhelming obstacles, I appreciate that he gives away his paycheck (for being president) to a different cause each time, and I understand he is only a human being who will sometimes disappoint me (and that he cannot please everyone all the time). building the wall has become necessary and going around congress to do it (although, as I stated earlier, I don’t like using an emergency declaration to do it) is the only way to get it done, especially since Congress has had years... decades even... to do something, ANYTHING about the problem but have remained useless on the topic. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Mar 26, 2019 8:48:41 GMT -8
I also think there will be a lean toward the mirror image of the other board.
I really hope the lean doesn't go any further than it already has. If it does, that would be disappointing.
The key difference I've seen here is the acknowledgement of a point made that was never conferred from the other board...
I'm not sure that's as great a difference as you think. The liberals on TOB acknowledge each other's points all the time, as we do here. They also never acknowledged any legitimacy to our positions when we still posted there, and I don't sense that we acknowledge theirs here either.
...and the absence of the malice toward posters here with differing takes.
The differences in opinion here are minor, just as they are on TOB now that we've left. When you started this forum, you knew it's membership and points of view would be almost all conservative. In that first week, I believe you mentioned hoping for some moderate voices to counter that, and I think not4u13 and I (and often Luca) fill that role. It's easy to feel no malice towards posters with whom you often agree, but when the distance between us is like the Grand Canyon, it makes high fives and fist bumps pretty difficult.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Mar 26, 2019 10:31:04 GMT -8
It's an interesting point you bring up. My biggest disappointment with the other board was how dismissive the usual suspects were of any dissent of what I'll call a leftist agenda. By that I mean tying every point, regardless of efforts to support otherwise, to:
Orange Man Bad
Obama Good
Bigger Gov't as a "solution" for anything added to the long list of growing "problems"
Victimization of everyone not a white, straight male
Speaking for myself only, I've lost all patience with that crowd. If that means my lean is further right than what's comfortable, then so be it. Here's the rub for me - I hope I don't cross the line and become dismissive toward a differing perspective that's supported by something other than regurgitating a talking point. For the most part, I'm not seeing it here. But to your point, I could very well be wearing rose colored shades.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Mar 26, 2019 10:49:16 GMT -8
Above all, I think it's important that those who are conservative-leaning are dedicated to seeking out the truth--which I genuinely believe the posters on this forum have done. When that requires criticism of our own side, I am whole-heartedly in favor of it.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Mar 27, 2019 12:36:33 GMT -8
Back to the topic of this thread:
"Manufactured crisis...."
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Mar 29, 2019 9:35:11 GMT -8
Somebody needs to let this guy know that this is all just "manufactured" by Donald Trump.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Mar 29, 2019 11:04:10 GMT -8
Anyone here been down near or across the border recently? I'm curious if what you're seeing is what's on the news.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Mar 30, 2019 18:31:40 GMT -8
For some reason I'm not going with Pelosi on this one....
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not4u13
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Post by not4u13 on Mar 31, 2019 7:50:24 GMT -8
A lot of people really like the brazen approach Trump is taking with border security. How is that working out? More people are coming across the border than ever before. Trump keeps picking up a bigger stick and all that is happening is people are rushing the gates. He is creating the crisis not solving it. All of his threats have created mass chaos and confusion and he doesn't have the authority to back up what he's saying. It's creating a perfect storm.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Mar 31, 2019 9:05:03 GMT -8
A lot of people really like the brazen approach Trump is taking with border security. How is that working out? More people are coming across the border than ever before. Trump keeps picking up a bigger stick and all that is happening is people are rushing the gates. He is creating the crisis not solving it. All of his threats have created mass chaos and confusion and he doesn't have the authority to back up what he's saying. It's creating a perfect storm. I understand your perspective, but it sounds like you’re recommending he do nothing so as to stop that chaos. if that is what you’re saying, or even if it’s not, I disagree with it. Trump is doing “something” as you say, but he is not creating chaos at the border. He hasn’t yet built the wall, which is “the” event all these “caravans “ are trying to beat, because once it is in place, their progress will be greatly diminished (though obviously not stopped completely). But the caravan traffic HAS been created, and funded, and driven by financiers (mostly people,who do not have our best interests in mind). Other than he wants to stop it, Trump has nothing to do with it. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Mar 31, 2019 14:08:06 GMT -8
A lot of people really like the brazen approach Trump is taking with border security. How is that working out? More people are coming across the border ILLEGALLY (emphasis added by Bick) than ever before. Trump keeps picking up a bigger stick and all that is happening is people are rushing the gates. He is creating the crisis not solving it. All of his threats have created mass chaos and confusion and he doesn't have the authority to back up what he's saying. It's creating a perfect storm. I agree with you on this point. Trump pushing for real border security would seem to be providing extra incentive for immigrants to head north before the measures take effect, making it harder for them to enter. Doesn't this sound a lot like the dynamics of what happened to gun sales every time there was a shooting that resulted in politicians demanding more restrictive gun laws? The trouble with the argument between left and right on this is it rarely includes the bold faced word I added above. Would you agree it's a very dishonest argument to exclude that key word? |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Apr 1, 2019 20:51:00 GMT -8
I realize this is something of an apples to oranges comparison, but the principle of fairness and injustice remain the same.
The Left cannot rouse itself to utter any criticism or concern over illegal immigrants because what they see are future Democratic voters. On the other hand, if the data showed that recent immigrants were more likely to vote Republican, I can guarantee you that Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi would be down at the border personally laying bricks for the Wall.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Apr 4, 2019 19:59:23 GMT -8
Howard Schultz goes off the reservation, refusing to stick to Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer's tired script. He might very well be the only reasonable guy running for POTUS on the Left.
Which means he can't possibly get the nomination.
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not4u13
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Post by not4u13 on Apr 6, 2019 6:21:04 GMT -8
A lot of people really like the brazen approach Trump is taking with border security. How is that working out? More people are coming across the border than ever before. Trump keeps picking up a bigger stick and all that is happening is people are rushing the gates. He is creating the crisis not solving it. All of his threats have created mass chaos and confusion and he doesn't have the authority to back up what he's saying. It's creating a perfect storm. I understand your perspective, but it sounds like you’re recommending he do nothing so as to stop that chaos. if that is what you’re saying, or even if it’s not, I disagree with it. Trump is doing “something” as you say, but he is not creating chaos at the border. He hasn’t yet built the wall, which is “the” event all these “caravans “ are trying to beat, because once it is in place, their progress will be greatly diminished (though obviously not stopped completely). But the caravan traffic HAS been created, and funded, and driven by financiers (mostly people,who do not have our best interests in mind). Other than he wants to stop it, Trump has nothing to do with it. Trump used to criticize Obama for publicly announcing military strategy, tipping off the enemy. He did the same thing here. Like it or lump it, border security is far more complex than what happens at the border. Simply putting up a bigger barrier or arresting more people isn't what border security is really about. NAFTA actually did more to improve immigration than a wall because it provided jobs and financial security for border cities in Mexico. This reduced violence in favor of legitimate commerce. Trump is a bully and the best way to beat a bully is ignore them as long as you can and then punch them in the mouth. That is what is bound to happen and since Trump does NOT have the majority of the country behind him, I'm unsure of what could happen if someone decides to really call his bluff. Whatever it is, it will be painful for all of us. Only question is, for how long. |
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