Credo
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by Credo on Jun 13, 2020 0:14:29 GMT -8
It seems like pure ideologies of socialism and Christianity should be similar in their desire for a common good. We go sideways when we introduce people into the mix. Small correction--Christianity, unlike socialism, is not an ideology but at its heart is a visible community of believers. But for the sake of assessing the truth or persuasiveness of my thesis, it's fair to look at the philosophical principles of each to see if they are compatible or incompatible. To say that socialists and Christians each desire the common good might be true, but is not particularly helpful in determining their compatibility, since every major ideology, philosophy, religion, or political movement thinks they are seeking the common good, otherwise they could never gain any type of serious following. Both Republicans and Democrats desire the common good. Theists and atheists both desire the common good. Heck, I'm sure communists and climate change radicals and the ringleaders of CHAZ think they are seeking the common good. A better question would be to examine whether they these various groups are actually achieving the common good. The problem here, unfortunately, is that trying to determine this is extremely subjective. So as important as the question of the common good is, I will set it aside for now. The point is--are socialism and Christianity compatible? Your comment that "We go sideways when we introduce people into the mix," is an interesting one--and I think may unintentionally support my point. First, I would say that you cannot separate people--or the effect on people--from the evaluation of any program or philosophy. For instance, many say that socialism sounds good in theory, but is--and always had been--as disaster when put into practice. See, those pesky people got in the way and messed it all up! If that's the case perhaps the problem is not with the people, but with the theory itself. But again this is going down the road of judging the quality or effectiveness of socialism, which is not the question at hand.... But the people question, I think, does go to the point of why Christianity and socialism are incompatible--which is that they have radically different anthropologies. That is, their respective understandings of human beings and human nature are fundamentally different. Socialism is based in philosophical materialism and does not recognize any principle other than the material well being of people. While there have been attempts to form a so-called "Christian Socialism," in the end these movements will always prioritize the material over the spiritual. Christianity, on the other hand, recognizes the importance of both the material and the immaterial (or spiritual). Because Christianity gives primacy to the uniqueness and ultimate value of each individual person (as a child of God), it has a flexibility in practice that allows it to operate under many different forms of government and/or social conditions. The Christian doctrine of man's fallen nature (Original Sin) and its respect for free will also helps it to see that no human plans or projects (such as socialism) can ever bring about a perfect equality of outcomes or elimination of poverty. While we are called to seek the good of our neighbor, this must be voluntary and with respect for the rights of others to reject this help. Socialism, while seeking the good of neighbor, will ultimately subordinate the individual to the greater good, will not uphold the right of private property, and will use compulsion to achieve its aims. Now much of the above might raise other questions for perhaps a different thread, but my thesis on the incompatibility of socialism and Christianity boils down to: - different views of humanity and human nature
- different views on how to achieve the common good
- …..neither of which can be reconciled.
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
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Post by RSM789 on Jun 15, 2020 15:53:17 GMT -8
That's when it was time to go, but up until then he did a good job. That was a really good board for awhile.............................Luca Those of us who were executed early on will disagree. What made that board great was the people, the mix of folks who came over from the Register. JQP was sitting there like Forrest Gump when we all fell into his lap. He had nothing to do with forming that group and nearly killed it off completely. He was given a goose who laid golden forum eggs and he stabbed it every time one of the eggs rolled off to the right. JQP is actually a very weak individual who was mightily influence by the likes of ParrotPaul and later Vilepagan. OCConnect was a lonely place before we all arrived and is just as lonely now that we are all gone.
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
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Post by RSM789 on Jun 15, 2020 15:54:30 GMT -8
Back on topic, If Joe Biden can be openly for abortion & claim to be a Catholic, then I guess anything goes.
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by davidsf on Jun 16, 2020 6:43:37 GMT -8
Back on topic, If Joe Biden can be openly for abortion & claim to be a Catholic, then I guess anything goes. Wasn’t he excommunicated for his stance on abortion, once upon a time?
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by Credo on Jun 16, 2020 10:12:55 GMT -8
Back on topic, If Joe Biden can be openly for abortion & claim to be a Catholic, then I guess anything goes. Wasn’t he excommunicated for his stance on abortion, once upon a time? This is a bit off topic from the thread, but the whole concept of excommunication is often misunderstood--even by many within the Catholic Church. To be in the state of excommunication literally means to be "out of communion" with God and the Church. Most people associate the term with popes excommunicating those who have engaged in public heresy, such as Martin Luther or King Henry VIII. These, however, are exceedingly rare cases and have almost never happened in the past 150 years. In fact, I only know of one public pronouncement in my own lifetime, which involved the traditionalist Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who was excommunicated by Pope John Paul II in 1988 for consecrating four bishops against the express approval of the pope. Someone who is excommunicated is barred from receiving the Eucharist (communion) until they have been reconciled to God and the church through the sacrament of Confession (Jn 20:23; Mt 16:19, 18:18). This prevents the person from receiving the sacramental Body and Blood of Christ in an unworthy state (1 Cor 11:29), and is meant for their own spiritual protection. [If someone wants to discuss the Biblical or theological issues at hand, it would be a good place for a new thread. If, on the other hand, someone wants to engage in mindless trolling (hint, hint), then that will be ignored.] It's a kind of last resort alarm bell to warn the believer that they have strayed from the faith in a serious and obstinate way. When any baptized member of the Catholic Church commits a mortal sin, they have essentially taken themselves out of communion with God and the church, that is, they have excommunicated themselves. This would be the case if I were to commit blasphemy or adultery, for example. In Joe Biden's case, his public advocacy of abortion is a prima facie case of self-excommunication. In the case of Democrat politicians like Biden and Pelosi, who have openly and consistently voiced their support for abortion rights, they should not present themselves to receive the Eucharist until they have repented of this serious sin. The problem is that the enforcement of this provision is up to individual bishops and priests--who are typically hesitant to be outspoken in these cases as it may be perceived as too political. I disagree with this approach, but I'm not in the decision-making loop. The other issue, sadly, is that too many older bishops are more politically aligned with the Democratic party and prefer not to raise the issue in a way that would be embarrassing to the left side of the aisle. Last year, though, there was a rare moment of public enforcement when Biden was denied communion by a pastor in South Carolina. Now this is how it should be done, IMHO:
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jun 16, 2020 12:43:27 GMT -8
I have never understood that fully.
Thank you for your time and insight, credo.
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
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Post by Credo on Jun 16, 2020 14:11:11 GMT -8
I have never understood that fully. Thank you for your time and insight, credo. My pleasure. Honestly, the concept is really not that different from examples such as an athlete suspended by his team or the league, a kid grounded by their parents, or a person who by their violation of the civil law has placed themselves out of communion with the rest of society and is then placed on probation or put in jail or prison. In the case of the church the measures are all on the spiritual side. The goal is to have the person reconciled to Christ through the grace of prayer and the sacraments.
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on May 23, 2022 7:41:20 GMT -8
So says this Bishop in San francisco!
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on May 23, 2022 9:34:11 GMT -8
Never realized that a man of the cloth was even supposed to ask who was on the receiving end of communion, let alone what their political views might be.
I was under the impression that was a matter between you and God.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 23, 2022 10:15:10 GMT -8
Never realized that a man of the cloth was even supposed to ask who was on the receiving end of communion, let alone what their political views might be. I was under the impression that was a matter between you and God. The Archbishop didn't ask Pelosi if she was pro-abortion, she proudly broadcasts it every chance she gets. Her denial of Communion is appropriate.
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billb
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Post by billb on May 23, 2022 11:29:14 GMT -8
Wow, there is a problem with the Democrats?
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SK80
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by SK80 on May 23, 2022 11:40:48 GMT -8
Never realized that a man of the cloth was even supposed to ask who was on the receiving end of communion, let alone what their political views might be. I was under the impression that was a matter between you and God. Nancy makes it a public service announcement.... she chose freely to make it not about GOD and HERSELF!
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on May 23, 2022 12:12:03 GMT -8
Never realized that a man of the cloth was even supposed to ask who was on the receiving end of communion, let alone what their political views might be. I was under the impression that was a matter between you and God. The Archbishop didn't ask Pelosi if she was pro-abortion, she proudly broadcasts it every chance she gets. Her denial of Communion is appropriate. Agree that it's not appropriate to receive it, but disagree a member of the cloth gets to act as an arbitrator. That's God's job.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 23, 2022 12:17:55 GMT -8
Unfortunately, God works after the fact. If not, Nancy might be covered in oozing pustules.
When a "member" of the faith hypocritically flaunts her violation of arguably the most precious tenet of that faith, it's within the perview of the clergy to withhold the sacraments from her.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on May 23, 2022 12:29:11 GMT -8
If a Catholic doesn't believe it's his place to decide for a woman to decide whether or not it's ok for that woman to choose to abort her pregnancy, should that man also be excluded from the sacraments?
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