MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,815
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Post by MDDad on Aug 27, 2020 14:57:26 GMT -8
Two guys walk into a bank. One is carrying a dozen bricks, and the other has a lighted torch. They empty all the tellers' cash drawers, break every glass surface in the bank, and set it on fire. The bank manager watches all this from his office on CCTV, tells his security guards to stand down, instructs his tellers not to push the silent alarm buttons, and orders the vault doors to be left open.
VP and the media report the robbery as being Trump's fault.
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SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,377
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Post by SK80 on Aug 27, 2020 15:23:23 GMT -8
Two guys walk into a bank. One is carrying a dozen bricks, and the other has a lighted torch. They empty all the tellers' cash drawers, break every glass surface in the bank, and set it on fire. The bank manager watches all this from his office on CCTV, tells his security guards to stand down, instructs his tellers not to push the silent alarm buttons, and orders the vault doors to be left open. VP and the media report the robbery as being Trump's fault. Question: Is this bank governed by Liberals and Democrats  |
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
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Post by Credo on Aug 27, 2020 20:19:30 GMT -8
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Post by vilepagan on Aug 28, 2020 4:54:16 GMT -8
Professor, try not to be a complete idiot...I know it's tough for you but please try.
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Post by vilepagan on Aug 28, 2020 4:55:13 GMT -8
vile, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. What’s it going to be? I'm sorry Oakley but I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you be a little more specific? |
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Post by vilepagan on Aug 28, 2020 5:01:28 GMT -8
It's true because trump is the president and he's responsible for what happens on his watch. When police are needed to intervene in a riot, it is the responsibility of localities (City, County & State) to determine what is needed to quell the riot. Those folks are typically not responsible for the riot, but they are responsible for the response. The presidents responsibility is to assist with the National Guard if those localities ask for federal help. The president is not responsible for nor in charge of, the National Guard. They are controlled by the Governors of their respective states. Trump is not responsible for the response to the riots (except where he sent in Federal troops and cops), but the riots themselves did happen on his watch so he must accept responsibility for them. And yes, Obama should accept responsibility for any occurrences during his tenure in the WH. |
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Post by vilepagan on Aug 28, 2020 5:03:42 GMT -8
Two guys walk into a bank. One is carrying a dozen bricks, and the other has a lighted torch. They empty all the tellers' cash drawers, break every glass surface in the bank, and set it on fire. The bank manager watches all this from his office on CCTV, tells his security guards to stand down, instructs his tellers not to push the silent alarm buttons, and orders the vault doors to be left open. VP and the media report the robbery as being Trump's fault. Shall I make up an imaginary scenario and your alleged response to it? Did that make you feel intellectually superior? Do come back when you have a rational argument to make. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Aug 28, 2020 7:27:45 GMT -8
When police are needed to intervene in a riot, it is the responsibility of localities (City, County & State) to determine what is needed to quell the riot. Those folks are typically not responsible for the riot, but they are responsible for the response. The presidents responsibility is to assist with the National Guard if those localities ask for federal help. The president is not responsible for nor in charge of, the National Guard. They are controlled by the Governors of their respective states. Trump is not responsible for the response to the riots (except where he sent in Federal troops and cops), but the riots themselves did happen on his watch so he must accept responsibility for them. And yes, Obama should accept responsibility for any occurrences during his tenure in the WH. I was in error about the governors also being able to call in the National Guard on their own, sorry about that, my bad. I was confusing it with the ability the President has to call in the National Guard for federal missions. The amount of Federal control over the National Guard has increased in the past century, which I don't believe is necessarily a good thing. So we agree that the president is not responsible for supplying a solution to the riots. I don't see how you then make the leap that he is responsible for the riots themselves, especially when the rioters aren't about actions that Trump or the feds have done, but about what the local authorities have or haven't done. That would be like holding Grandpa responsible when a child demands a father to stop spanking him. It is outside of his responsibility. Where we disagree is holding individuals responsible for the actions of others. Other than being President, what did Obama do or not do that makes him responsible for the dead children at Sandy Hook? Even if you go down the route of gun confiscation, that Obama didn't have all guns removed from society so he is therefore responsible, it doesn't line up. Obama didn't have the power to magically make all guns disappear from society even if he wanted to, so holding him responsibly is a fools errand. You can't be held responsible for that which you don't have power or opportunity to control or change. |
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Post by vilepagan on Aug 28, 2020 9:08:26 GMT -8
The president is not responsible for nor in charge of, the National Guard. They are controlled by the Governors of their respective states. Trump is not responsible for the response to the riots (except where he sent in Federal troops and cops), but the riots themselves did happen on his watch so he must accept responsibility for them. And yes, Obama should accept responsibility for any occurrences during his tenure in the WH. Other than being President, what did Obama do or not do that makes him responsible for the dead children at Sandy Hook? Nothing at all, but a leader accepts that whatever happens while he's in charge he's responsible for...a leader doesn't shirk responsibility. If you want to be the leader of the free world that starts at home with the little things. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Aug 28, 2020 10:00:19 GMT -8
I think what differs is our viewpoint on what "taking responsibility" means?
Since you infer that Obama is indeed responsible for the shooting at Sandy Hook since it happened when he was president, what are the repercussions of that? Should Obama been put on trial for murder and given the death sentence or life imprisonment? That is the typical punishment given to those who are truly responsible for mass murder.
Or should Obama have been removed from office? If you are responsible for the deaths of dozens of children, how can you be allowed to continue in your present occupation? A pediatrician who is responsible for deaths of children would no longer be allowed to practice medicine, so why, if you consider a president to be responsible for the deaths of children, should the president remain in office?
Or are you suggesting that taking responsibility involves no repercussions? If so, then that is where we disagree, for not accepting the repercussions for something you are responsible is the definition of shirking responsibility.
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,815
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Post by MDDad on Aug 28, 2020 11:03:51 GMT -8
One can't ignore the fact that there's a big difference between "taking responsibility" for something, and actually "being responsible" for it. One of the silliest platitudes we hear repeatedly is when a politician or other public official says, "I take full responsibility for that", when in fact they were not responsible at all, and their proclamation is nothing more than a self-serving effort to look noble and accountable. If a person cannot cause something to happen, nor prevent it from happening, it is hard to consider them responsible for it.
Donald Trump is not responsible for a virus that should have been contained in China somehow bursting forth and infecting most of the world's geography. He's also not responsible when a dirty white cop who should have been kicked off the force years ago, but was prevented from being booted by a protective union, kills a black citizen. He's also not responsible when riots go on for weeks in two dozen cities with Democratic mayors and city councils who refuse to intervene with the powers at their disposal, and refuse to ask for federal help. Claiming he is is just political bullshit.
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Post by Oakley on Aug 28, 2020 11:28:48 GMT -8
Is Chauvin the dirty white cop you are talking about MDDad? It is my understanding that George Floyd had enough fentanyl in his system to kill him. It has been reported that he said he couldn’t breathe while he was still standing?
What is your understanding of the situation?
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,815
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Post by MDDad on Aug 28, 2020 12:00:48 GMT -8
Yes, I believe that George Floyd had overdosed on fentanyl, and that Chauvin's knee may or may not have been a contributing factor in his death. But yes, I also believe that Chauvin is a dirty white cop. Or perhaps he's better called a white bully, who had something like 18 previous excessive force complaints against him. He should not have been on that police force, and he should not have been in a position of physically interacting with the public.
We can't rid of ourselves of dirty cops and lousy teachers because of the excessive power wielded by public employee unions, and that is a primary cause of many of our ills.
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Post by Oakley on Aug 28, 2020 12:06:16 GMT -8
Yes, I believe that George Floyd had overdosed on fentanyl, and that Chauvin's knee may or may not have been a contributing factor in his death. But yes, I also believe that Chauvin is a dirty white cop. Or perhaps he's better called a white bully, who had something like 18 previous excessive force complaints against him. He should not have been on that police force, and he should not have been in a position of physically interacting with the public. We can't rid of ourselves of dirty cops and lousy teachers because of the excessive power wielded by public employee unions, and that is a primary cause of many of our ills. Okay, thanks for your response. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Aug 28, 2020 12:30:24 GMT -8
Chauvin's race really doesn't even play into it. I believe if Floyd had happened to have been white, more than likely Chauvin still would have knelt on his neck. The problem with Chauvin wasn't racism, it was an abuse of authority. And as MDDad stipulates, the responsibility for him still being on the police force lies with the police union.
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