RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Jul 2, 2020 15:24:02 GMT -8
Most would agree that just talking is much better compared to your alternatives... Most would also agree that for an alleged heterosexual you talk about gay sex A LOT...a lot more than any gay guy I've ever known. Perhaps some counseling could reveal the reason why. Sounds like you have a crush on me & are doing some wishful thinking. Sorry Sinbad, you are out of luck...
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thefrog
Eminence Grise
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Post by thefrog on Jul 2, 2020 17:16:02 GMT -8
defendant must prove the existence of four prerequisites in order for him to have been entitled to use force in self-defense. State v. Chambers, 671 S.W.2d 781, 783 (Mo. banc 1984); State v. Habermann, 93 S.W.3d 835, 837 (Mo. App. E.D. 2002).
Specifically, a defendant must present substantial evidence that,
(1) he did not provoke or was not the aggressor; The mob of about 500 people walked into their private residence and allegedly hurled insults and threats toward the couple; "The group was “screaming death threats,” he recounted, saying they would “burn my house and kill my dog and what rooms in my house they were going to live in after they killed me.” Furthermore, Mr. McCloskey stated that one protester called him by name and that another man kept getting closer while “trying to look intimidating.” “I’m not a mind reader but he gave every impression of being there for assault purposes and to be physically threatening,”... It got to the point where I was concerned that I might actually have to shoot.”According to Black's Law Diction, provocation is "the act of inciting another to do something. ... Provocation simply, unaccompanied by a crime or misdemeanor, does not justify the person provoked to commit an assault and battery." Trespass is a misdemeanor in Missouri.
(2) he had reasonable grounds for believing he was faced with immediate danger of serious bodily harm; Reasonableness is one of those terms in law that is a little difficult to define, so again, I'll resort to the law dictionary; "Fair, proper, or moderate under the circumstances." Given the size of the crowd, the alleged threats, insults, etc. coupled with the news cycle (i.e., look what has been going on around the country with some unruly large crowds such as this), one would argue that a reasonable person would feel an immediate danger of serious bodily harm (or death);
(3) he did not use more force than was reasonably necessary; and I think this is where the most debate would lie. Mr. McCloskey pointed his gun at the crowd, but did not fire upon the crowd. Generally, in self-defense situations, the use of force is a 1:1 deal. That is, if someone were to pull a knife on you, you would be permitted to use deadly force against them believing your life is in danger. Here, McCloskey didn't actually use force (that's where the assault argument comes into play).
(4) he did everything in his power and consistent with his own safety to avoid the danger. Habermann, 93 S.W.3d at 837; Seals, 487 S.W.3d at 23–24.
Mr. Mcloskey has no duty to retreat, though I suppose he could have called the police, locked themselves indoors, and waited.
The use of deadly force is justified only when the defender reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to protect himself or another from immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm. State v. Crudup, 415 S.W.3d 170, 175–76 (Mo. App. E.D. 2013). A reasonable belief is “a belief based on reasonable grounds, that is, grounds that could lead a reasonable person in the same situation to the same belief.” State v. Smith, 456 S.W.3d 849, 852 (Mo. banc 2015) (quoting MAI-CR 3d 306.06A[6] (effective January 1, 2009)).
State v. Whipple, 501 S.W.3d 507, 517 (Mo. Ct. App. 2016)
My two cents. Ultimately, I think this is going to end up being a "mountain out of a molehill" moment on both sides. Frankly, I'd be shocked if the DA decides to prosecute him and his wife.
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Post by ProfessorFate on Jul 2, 2020 21:31:03 GMT -8
A defendant must prove the existence of four prerequisites in order for him to have been entitled to use force in self-defense. State v. Chambers, 671 S.W.2d 781, 783 (Mo. banc 1984); State v. Habermann, 93 S.W.3d 835, 837 (Mo. App. E.D. 2002). Specifically, a defendant must present substantial evidence that, (1) he did not provoke or was not the aggressor; (2) he had reasonable grounds for believing he was faced with immediate danger of serious bodily harm; (3) he did not use more force than was reasonably necessary; and (4) he did everything in his power and consistent with his own safety to avoid the danger. Habermann, 93 S.W.3d at 837; Seals, 487 S.W.3d at 23–24. The use of deadly force9 is justified only when the defender reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to protect himself or another from immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm. State v. Crudup, 415 S.W.3d 170, 175–76 (Mo. App. E.D. 2013). A reasonable belief is “a belief based on reasonable grounds, that is, grounds that could lead a reasonable person in the same situation to the same belief.” State v. Smith, 456 S.W.3d 849, 852 (Mo. banc 2015) (quoting MAI-CR 3d 306.06A[6] (effective January 1, 2009)). State v. Whipple, 501 S.W.3d 507, 517 (Mo. Ct. App. 2016) Posting from my phone so excuse the formatting issues. The reply function in mobile mode is garbage. Thanks for the info, Frog. Just for the sake of argument I'd say that the couple will have trouble proving #2, #3, and they certainly failed on #4.Also none of these points mention property at all, it's all about personal safety. You're losing sight of the fact that the homeowners didn't use any force at all...just deterrence.
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thefrog
Eminence Grise
Posts: 1,819
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Post by thefrog on Jul 2, 2020 21:37:49 GMT -8
Thanks for the info, Frog. Just for the sake of argument I'd say that the couple will have trouble proving #2, #3, and they certainly failed on #4.Also none of these points mention property at all, it's all about personal safety. You're losing site of the fact that the homeowners didn't use any force at all...just deterrence. Right, but the other side will argue “assault”
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Post by ProfessorFate on Jul 2, 2020 21:45:31 GMT -8
You're losing sight of the fact that the homeowners didn't use any force at all...just deterrence. Right, but the other side will argue “assault” Assault. "I remember a time when you actually had to hit somebody."
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Post by vilepagan on Jul 3, 2020 2:08:11 GMT -8
Most would also agree that for an alleged heterosexual you talk about gay sex A LOT...a lot more than any gay guy I've ever known. Perhaps some counseling could reveal the reason why. Sounds like you have a crush on me & are doing some wishful thinking. Sorry Sinbad, you are out of luck... You couldn't be more wrong or more foolish. Carry on.
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Post by vilepagan on Jul 3, 2020 2:10:13 GMT -8
Thanks for the info, Frog. Just for the sake of argument I'd say that the couple will have trouble proving #2, #3, and they certainly failed on #4.Also none of these points mention property at all, it's all about personal safety. You're losing sight of the fact that the homeowners didn't use any force at all...just deterrence. You've completely lost sight of the law. The law doesn't allow you to point loaded guns at people to deter them from possibly committing a crime. You can only do so if they ARE committing a crime.
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Post by vilepagan on Jul 3, 2020 2:25:38 GMT -8
defendant must prove the existence of four prerequisites in order for him to have been entitled to use force in self-defense. State v. Chambers, 671 S.W.2d 781, 783 (Mo. banc 1984); State v. Habermann, 93 S.W.3d 835, 837 (Mo. App. E.D. 2002). Specifically, a defendant must present substantial evidence that, (1) he did not provoke or was not the aggressor; The mob of about 500 people walked into their private residence and allegedly hurled insults and threats toward the couple; "The group was “screaming death threats,” he recounted, saying they would “burn my house and kill my dog and what rooms in my house they were going to live in after they killed me.” Furthermore, Mr. McCloskey stated that one protester called him by name and that another man kept getting closer while “trying to look intimidating.” “I’m not a mind reader but he gave every impression of being there for assault purposes and to be physically threatening,”... It got to the point where I was concerned that I might actually have to shoot.”According to Black's Law Diction, provocation is "the act of inciting another to do something. ... Provocation simply, unaccompanied by a crime or misdemeanor, does not justify the person provoked to commit an assault and battery." Trespass is a misdemeanor in Missouri.(2) he had reasonable grounds for believing he was faced with immediate danger of serious bodily harm; Reasonableness is one of those terms in law that is a little difficult to define, so again, I'll resort to the law dictionary; "Fair, proper, or moderate under the circumstances." Given the size of the crowd, the alleged threats, insults, etc. coupled with the news cycle (i.e., look what has been going on around the country with some unruly large crowds such as this), one would argue that a reasonable person would feel an immediate danger of serious bodily harm (or death);(3) he did not use more force than was reasonably necessary; and I think this is where the most debate would lie. Mr. McCloskey pointed his gun at the crowd, but did not fire upon the crowd. Generally, in self-defense situations, the use of force is a 1:1 deal. That is, if someone were to pull a knife on you, you would be permitted to use deadly force against them believing your life is in danger. Here, McCloskey didn't actually use force (that's where the assault argument comes into play).
(4) he did everything in his power and consistent with his own safety to avoid the danger. Habermann, 93 S.W.3d at 837; Seals, 487 S.W.3d at 23–24. Mr. Mcloskey has no duty to retreat, though I suppose he could have called the police, locked themselves indoors, and waited. The use of deadly force is justified only when the defender reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to protect himself or another from immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm. State v. Crudup, 415 S.W.3d 170, 175–76 (Mo. App. E.D. 2013). A reasonable belief is “a belief based on reasonable grounds, that is, grounds that could lead a reasonable person in the same situation to the same belief.” State v. Smith, 456 S.W.3d 849, 852 (Mo. banc 2015) (quoting MAI-CR 3d 306.06A[6] (effective January 1, 2009)). State v. Whipple, 501 S.W.3d 507, 517 (Mo. Ct. App. 2016) My two cents. Ultimately, I think this is going to end up being a "mountain out of a molehill" moment on both sides. Frankly, I'd be shocked if the DA decides to prosecute him and his wife.First let me say thank you for your intelligent and cordial response. I agree with you that charges in this case would be surprising, but again for the sake of discussion.... 1.) The claims of the homeowners aren't to be taken as truth IMO because they also claimed that the gate was smashed by the protesters as they entered and it clearly was not. The haste with which these people went to the press to get their version of the story out makes me very suspicious of their motives, and the falsity of their story is quite clear. I doubt there were the threats made as the homeowner claims and I also doubt that any of the protesters were visibly armed. In your quote the homeowner claimed he was afraid he was actually going to have to shoot someone, but he doesn't say why he grabbed his gun in the first place. 2.) On the subject of "reasonableness' I'l just ask again why they were the only people on that street who felt so threatened they armed themselves and confronted the protesters. It seems to me they were not reasonable in their reaction. 3.) Granted he didn't shoot anyone but he and his wife did put people in danger by pointing loaded weapons at them. If Mr. McCloskey had fired at the protesters it's likely he'd be facing some serious charges now...the same applies to threatening people unjustly. 4.) You say he has no duty to retreat but the statute you cited says differently. It seems to me that by going outside they needlessly escalated the confrontation and they also undercut any argument that they felt endangered by the crowd that allegedly included armed people. Again, thanks for the response...I enjoy such discussions.
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on Jul 3, 2020 5:32:41 GMT -8
It's pretty hard to argue that a trespassing mob that entered thru a security gate wouldn't be capable of inflicting some serious damage if left unchecked.
Whether their armed presence served as a deterrent, or an escalation is what's debatable. I agree that woman should not have pointed her pistol at anyone UNLESS they walked on to her property. I haven't seen any photos showing that...just close-ups of her pointing it at (I assume) someone in the crowd. It's not clear what precipitated that either.
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by MDDad on Jul 3, 2020 6:20:21 GMT -8
It seems that we are being asked to believe that there is a private community of very expensive homes and mansions surrounded by a wall and a security gate. Then that security gate is somehow mysteriously torn down and almost folded in half. Then an unruly mob of profane protesters storms through the suddenly new opening. And they had nothing to do with the destroyed gate? Yeah, that sounds logical, especially when you consider there has never been a cellphone video that started filming after the part the owner didn't want you to see.
And maybe Frog can answer this: I've always thought that carrying or brandishing a weapon is a deterrence, but pointing it at someone becomes assault. At the risk of oversimplification, isn't that generally the case?
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jul 3, 2020 6:41:26 GMT -8
Prosecuting attorney up there has announced she will prosecute the couple because “we can’t allow violence to threaten peaceful protests.”
Idiot!
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on Jul 3, 2020 6:47:27 GMT -8
There is video of someone holding open an undamaged gate to allow the mob in, so it would be inaccurate to say they broke down the gate, and stormed in.
It's unclear WHEN the iron gate was destroyed, and folded in half, but I don't think that's the point.
Mob trespassing into private, gated community is indisputable.
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Post by vilepagan on Jul 3, 2020 8:44:07 GMT -8
There is video of someone holding open an undamaged gate to allow the mob in, so it would be inaccurate to say they broke down the gate, and stormed in. It's unclear WHEN the iron gate was destroyed, and folded in half, but I don't think that's the point. Mob trespassing into private, gated community is indisputable. Thank you for clarifying about the gate. Whether or not the protesters were trespassing is an important question that needs to be answered. It's not clear to me that the "private street" is actually a private street.
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thefrog
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Post by thefrog on Jul 3, 2020 10:45:49 GMT -8
First let me say thank you for your intelligent and cordial response. I agree with you that charges in this case would be surprising, but again for the sake of discussion.... 1.) The claims of the homeowners aren't to be taken as truth IMO because they also claimed that the gate was smashed by the protesters as they entered and it clearly was not. The haste with which these people went to the press to get their version of the story out makes me very suspicious of their motives, and the falsity of their story is quite clear. I doubt there were the threats made as the homeowner claims and I also doubt that any of the protesters were visibly armed. In your quote the homeowner claimed he was afraid he was actually going to have to shoot someone, but he doesn't say why he grabbed his gun in the first place. Well, I think that depends on your source. It appears in the video that the protesters didn't destroy the gate until after the incident occurred (or maybe during, its hard to tell). However, based on the below picture, there is a sign that states "private residence" so entering without permission is the legal definition of trespass.2.) On the subject of "reasonableness' I'l just ask again why they were the only people on that street who felt so threatened they armed themselves and confronted the protesters. It seems to me they were not reasonable in their reaction. I imagine it's because nearly 500 people entered their residence without the homeowner's permission. I further suspect its because of McCloskey's frustration, fear, and anger. Given McCloskey's background, I don't think he would be opposed to the protests in general, but he did state that he feared for their lives and the safety of their property.3.) Granted he didn't shoot anyone but he and his wife did put people in danger by pointing loaded weapons at them. If Mr. McCloskey had fired at the protesters it's likely he'd be facing some serious charges now...the same applies to threatening people unjustly. Whether the gun is loaded or not, because of its status as a deadly weapon, the mere presence of the weapon would lead to an "apprehension of immediate physical harm." As gun-owners, I would assume the two would know how to handle the weapons, so while accidental discharge is definitely a possibility, part of the requirement and prerequisite to gun-ownership is trigger discipline (though, looking at the photos of Mrs. McCloskey, one would have to wonder if she had actually handled a weapon ever in her life).4.) You say he has no duty to retreat but the statute you cited says differently. It seems to me that by going outside they needlessly escalated the confrontation and they also undercut any argument that they felt endangered by the crowd that allegedly included armed people. I cited the common law principle of the use of force in self-defense, but I'd have to read the precedent on what the fourth element actually refers to. I would argue, however, that the home is not a place to retreat given the protesters had allegedly threatened to burn the home down.
Again, thanks for the response...I enjoy such discussions.
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thefrog
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Post by thefrog on Jul 3, 2020 10:49:44 GMT -8
It seems that we are being asked to believe that there is a private community of very expensive homes and mansions surrounded by a wall and a security gate. Then that security gate is somehow mysteriously torn down and almost folded in half. Then an unruly mob of profane protesters storms through the suddenly new opening. And they had nothing to do with the destroyed gate? Yeah, that sounds logical, especially when you consider there has never been a cellphone video that started filming after the part the owner didn't want you to see. And maybe Frog can answer this: I've always thought that carrying or brandishing a weapon is a deterrence, but pointing it at someone becomes assault. At the risk of oversimplification, isn't that generally the case? Assault is generally defined as intentionally putting someone in a reasonable apprehension of immediate harmful or offensive contact. So yes, that's how I would interpret it as well.
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