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Post by vilepagan on Nov 13, 2019 10:18:49 GMT -8
I don't know, but I also think it's a mistake to assume that Jefferson and Franklin shared the same beliefs on this question.
I think the drafters of the Constitution made sure that religion was kept out of government to preserve freedom of worship because they recognized that even in their relatively small group there were widely differing opinions about who and what makes up God and what is the proper way to worship.
After the thing was drafted and while they were wrangling over its ratification, Franklin did have this to say: "There are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall ever approve them." He would accept the Constitution, "because I expect no better and because I am not sure that it is not the best".
So, Franklin recognized that what he wanted might not be the best for everyone.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Nov 13, 2019 12:09:06 GMT -8
I don't know, but I also think it's a mistake to assume that Jefferson and Franklin shared the same beliefs on this question. Even though everything else they wrote indicated they did? (nice try to move the goalposts to the one thing you googled about Franklin, by the way... I didn’t want you to think your effort went unnoticed) |
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 13, 2019 12:56:18 GMT -8
Do you have some evidence of this rather outrageous claim, or just more comments about goalposts?
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Post by ProfessorFate on Nov 13, 2019 13:54:44 GMT -8
No. I would agree that it was founded by Christian men who went to great pains to make sure the church held no political power. And that the government held no religious power. More specifically, that the government could not demand anyone to change their beliefs, or how they believed they must practice their faith. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Nov 13, 2019 14:00:31 GMT -8
Do you have some evidence of this rather outrageous claim, or just more comments about goalposts? Yes, thank you for asking.., i have a lot more evidence (the Federalist Papers, for example) than you have for your fun other-than-factual claims. |
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 13, 2019 17:18:51 GMT -8
And yet you post none of it...I suppose we'll just have to decide for ourselves how much to believe you.
I would be very interested to see what you consider evidence of Franklin's or Jefferson's religious beliefs from The Federalist Papers given that those documents were authored by others. I look forward to your response...it should be fun.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 13, 2019 17:28:11 GMT -8
Sure, ok.
On the first part no, the government can't and shouldn't demand anyone change their beliefs, but I don't think that applies either to the baker or the t-shirt printer in the cases we've discussed. In both cases the "defendants" are free to believe whatever they wish. As to the second part, sure the government can and does prohibit most religious practices that violate the civil law. The government has allowed certain Native American shamans to smoke peyote legally, but I believe it's somewhat controlled. As a society we don't allow certain practices of sharia law, and while I doubt it's ever been tried, I'm sure the government would have something to say to any Aztec priests that wanted to perform a human sacrifice. The point is, the government most certainly can and does step in when religious practice runs afoul of the law.
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Post by ProfessorFate on Nov 13, 2019 19:06:52 GMT -8
They allow certain Native American shamans to smoke peyote legally, they allow certain Native Americans to kill bald eagles. As to your next two examples, the restrictions involve physical injuries if they are not restricted (female genital mutilation, and death). But in the case of the gays who can't get a gay marriage cake made for them by someone whose religious beliefs wont allow him to make one, the only result is that the gays are butt-hurt mentally because they didn't get their way, and have to get someone else to make the cake. Look on the bright side...that simply makes those gays more complete. Now they are butt-hurt mentally , which goes along with the fact that they are frequently butt-hurt physically.  |
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Nov 13, 2019 20:20:27 GMT -8
And abortion isn't "murder" either but I suspect you'd be ok with calling it that. It's just a term we use to discuss the issue, don't get hung up on it. Again, you threw a hissy fit when you accused Dave of knowing what you believe. Yet you then do the same to me in this discussion. Stick to commenting what we each write and leave the mind reading to Cleo. I never used the word "murder", I never alluded to it. All I wrote is that abortion ends a life. You then introduced the word murder and built a strawman around it. But since you brought it up and claim that abortion isn't murder, would you agree or disagree that abortion ends a life? As for "reproductive right" being a term, so is "illegal alien" and many on the left are extremely hung up on that one. Difference is that "reproductive right" is a fairy tale term made up in hopes of eliciting a certain response from woman while "illegal alien" is the correct legal term for someone who enters our country illegally or overstays a visa. |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Nov 13, 2019 21:13:44 GMT -8
Ok, Bye. Sorry you can't handle simple facts.  |
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 14, 2019 3:52:58 GMT -8
I see you're the one declaring victory Credo...rather amusing since you bailed on the conversation. So you've been reduced to posting childish pictures now. Figures.
I'm sorry I got your panties in a wad by mentioning the child molestation committed by all those Catholic priests. I guess you just can't handle the truth.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 14, 2019 3:54:35 GMT -8
Geez, talk about a hissy fit. I'm beginning to understand why JQP decided you guys were a bunch of snowflakes.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 14, 2019 4:01:56 GMT -8
So, like I said, the government does regulate how you may practice your religion, it's not just a matter of saying you believe a certain thing and then going out and doing whatever you claim your faith demands.
It's easy to be dismissive of discrimination you'll never face. The only result is that gay people will be discriminated against...but that doesn't bother you a bit.
Funny. Your anti-gay humor shows your motivation to be simple bigotry. That's not something we should support with the law.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Nov 14, 2019 6:15:23 GMT -8
Still waiting for anyone to show evidence that an unborn child, from conception, is not both
Living
And
Human
Im sure I’ll be disappointed, because...well, you can’t.
but I also can’t let it go.
anyone? Anyone? Vilebueller?
🤷🏻♂️
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Nov 14, 2019 15:23:10 GMT -8
I see you're the one declaring victory Credo...rather amusing since you bailed on the conversation. So you've been reduced to posting childish pictures now. Figures. I'm sorry I got your panties in a wad by mentioning the child molestation committed by all those Catholic priests. I guess you just can't handle the truth. I'm not declaring anything of the sort--and the fact that you think so says more about you than about me. I was trying to engage in a thoughtful conversation on some of the moral issues surrounding abortion and other instances of the taking of human life. I chose to end my my participation when the discussion turned to an ad hominem attack on the Catholic Church. Nothing more. Your response above speaks for itself. Perhaps you can prove me wrong by refraining from lobbing another stink-bomb. |
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