not4u13
Active Contributor
Posts: 74
|
Post by not4u13 on Mar 18, 2019 4:12:50 GMT -8
MDDad is hitting on exactly what I'm trying to get at. The President of the United States labels everything that HE does not agree with as FAKE NEWS. There is no vetting. If we go along with that approach, who gets to label news as Fake? Who is trustworthy enough to actually vet the news sources? Is Fox News fake and CNN real or the other way around? It depends on who you ask. Where do we get the alternative view? How do we even know enough to vet anything?
Trump would have you believe that the entire CNN agenda and everything they ever report on is Fake News. Does anyone here really believe that?
A second, and related, question is this. What is news anyway? Are "news programs" really news or just another version of Rush Limbaugh (nobody here thinks that's news do they?). I mean, I like the John and Ken show on KFI, but that's not news. Nearly all the programming on these 24hr news channels is one form or another of an opinion show. Sort of like writing an opinion column. So if those aren't news, then what is and where do we find a credible source of information?
Personally, I watch very little of these programs. I'll watch my local news in the evenings, but most of the time I read my news. I like what Apple News does in that it shows me a variety of stories from a variety of sources and I can read about the same topic from different points of view.
When Trump goes around spouting about "FAKE NEWS" all the time he is undermining the general public perception of the news media in general as being a credible source for information and he's doing it so that when they report on something in the Trump administration that isn't good, they won't listen. People have started believing Trump over legitimate news stories. That's very dangerous, no matter who is President.
|
|
davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
|
Post by davidsf on Mar 18, 2019 5:05:22 GMT -8
MDDad is hitting on exactly what I'm trying to get at. The President of the United States labels everything that HE does not agree with as FAKE NEWS. There is no vetting. If we go along with that approach, who gets to label news as Fake? Who is trustworthy enough to actually vet the news sources? Is Fox News fake and CNN real or the other way around? It depends on who you ask. Where do we get the alternative view? How do we even know enough to vet anything? Trump would have you believe that the entire CNN agenda and everything they ever report on is Fake News. Does anyone here really believe that? A second, and related, question is this. What is news anyway? Are "news programs" really news or just another version of Rush Limbaugh (nobody here thinks that's news do they?). I mean, I like the John and Ken show on KFI, but that's not news. Nearly all the programming on these 24hr news channels is one form or another of an opinion show. Sort of like writing an opinion column. So if those aren't news, then what is and where do we find a credible source of information? Personally, I watch very little of these programs. I'll watch my local news in the evenings, but most of the time I read my news. I like what Apple News does in that it shows me a variety of stories from a variety of sources and I can read about the same topic from different points of view. When Trump goes around spouting about "FAKE NEWS" all the time he is undermining the general public perception of the news media in general as being a credible source for information and he's doing it so that when they report on something in the Trump administration that isn't good, they won't listen. People have started believing Trump over legitimate news stories. That's very dangerous, no matter who is President. I will say, my rejection of mass media “news” and, therefore, the beginning of my personal betting process, started with (dare I say it, even here?) Rush Limbaugh. in the beginning, somewhere back in the early 90’s, I’d heard of him so on a particularly long car trip up to Northern CA, I kept scanning the radio dial until I found his broadcast and listened to him for the first time. I liked what he had to say, but found him pompous and condescending. Eventually the pomposity prompted,me to question what he was saying (I don’t like people talking down to me), so I started looking into a lot of what he told me. It turned out, a lot of what he said was just as biased as the news media to which I objected, all that to say, in answer to your question, “who gets to label news as fake?”, I have to say, I do... for me. |
|
Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
|
Post by Credo on Mar 20, 2019 22:31:15 GMT -8
Donald Trump: worst racist ever.
|
|
Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
|
Post by Credo on Mar 20, 2019 22:49:19 GMT -8
MDDad is hitting on exactly what I'm trying to get at. The President of the United States labels everything that HE does not agree with as FAKE NEWS. There is no vetting. If we go along with that approach, who gets to label news as Fake? Who is trustworthy enough to actually vet the news sources? Is Fox News fake and CNN real or the other way around? It depends on who you ask. Where do we get the alternative view? How do we even know enough to vet anything? Trump would have you believe that the entire CNN agenda and everything they ever report on is Fake News. Does anyone here really believe that? A second, and related, question is this. What is news anyway? Are "news programs" really news or just another version of Rush Limbaugh (nobody here thinks that's news do they?). I mean, I like the John and Ken show on KFI, but that's not news. Nearly all the programming on these 24hr news channels is one form or another of an opinion show. Sort of like writing an opinion column. So if those aren't news, then what is and where do we find a credible source of information? Personally, I watch very little of these programs. I'll watch my local news in the evenings, but most of the time I read my news. I like what Apple News does in that it shows me a variety of stories from a variety of sources and I can read about the same topic from different points of view. When Trump goes around spouting about "FAKE NEWS" all the time he is undermining the general public perception of the news media in general as being a credible source for information and he's doing it so that when they report on something in the Trump administration that isn't good, they won't listen. People have started believing Trump over legitimate news stories. That's very dangerous, no matter who is President. I get your concern, but you may be painting with an overly broad brush (as Trump is also want to do). No, not everything the President disagrees with is FAKE NEWS, not does he assert as such. But the false and disingenuous reporting by many of the folks at CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times, and the Washington Post is in fact rightly characterized as "Fake News." Just take the following stories--among dozens of examples--that have inflamed the nation since 2015: - Trump called all Mexicans 'rapists'
- Trump-Russia Election Collusion
- Trump calls white supremacists "fine people" in Charlottesville
- Brett Kavanaugh is a sexual predator
- Convington Catholic boys bully Native American veteran
IMHO, these are all FAKE NEWS accounts that were intentionally meant to reflect badly on Trump and his supporters. The mistakes in reporting and narrative never fall in the other direction. No bad reporting over the past decade from the above news sources ever made Obama, Hillary, or any other Democrat look bad. |
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Mar 21, 2019 6:36:44 GMT -8
Even more egregious is that when proven "fake" they rarely if ever make a confession, correction or apology. Damage done, move along.
|
|
Bick
Administrator 
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Mar 21, 2019 20:09:08 GMT -8
Even more egregious is that when proven "fake" they rarely if ever make a confession, correction or apology. Damage done, move along. Almost everything that rubs wrong is a function of the absence of accountability. If someone stands up and says "I screwed up...I apologize", in most cases I can think of, it's forgiven if there's a legit attempt at making amends. This piggybacks what MDD said about the smugness that is so damn infuriating. |
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Mar 22, 2019 8:38:42 GMT -8
I believe the broad brush from this President lies in the fact that 90% of the media, 80% of those employed by the media spend 85% of their time spinning, conjuring, writing and talking half truths, lies and omissions.
In essence their duty as those whom relay the stories are completely fake..... they are no longer journalists but opinionists and propagandist.
|
|
not4u13
Active Contributor
Posts: 74
|
Post by not4u13 on Mar 23, 2019 5:58:35 GMT -8
MDDad is hitting on exactly what I'm trying to get at. The President of the United States labels everything that HE does not agree with as FAKE NEWS. There is no vetting. If we go along with that approach, who gets to label news as Fake? Who is trustworthy enough to actually vet the news sources? Is Fox News fake and CNN real or the other way around? It depends on who you ask. Where do we get the alternative view? How do we even know enough to vet anything? Trump would have you believe that the entire CNN agenda and everything they ever report on is Fake News. Does anyone here really believe that? A second, and related, question is this. What is news anyway? Are "news programs" really news or just another version of Rush Limbaugh (nobody here thinks that's news do they?). I mean, I like the John and Ken show on KFI, but that's not news. Nearly all the programming on these 24hr news channels is one form or another of an opinion show. Sort of like writing an opinion column. So if those aren't news, then what is and where do we find a credible source of information? Personally, I watch very little of these programs. I'll watch my local news in the evenings, but most of the time I read my news. I like what Apple News does in that it shows me a variety of stories from a variety of sources and I can read about the same topic from different points of view. When Trump goes around spouting about "FAKE NEWS" all the time he is undermining the general public perception of the news media in general as being a credible source for information and he's doing it so that when they report on something in the Trump administration that isn't good, they won't listen. People have started believing Trump over legitimate news stories. That's very dangerous, no matter who is President. I get your concern, but you may be painting with an overly broad brush (as Trump is also want to do). No, not everything the President disagrees with is FAKE NEWS, not does he assert as such. But the false and disingenuous reporting by many of the folks at CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times, and the Washington Post is in fact rightly characterized as "Fake News." Just take the following stories--among dozens of examples--that have inflamed the nation since 2015: - Trump called all Mexicans 'rapists'
- Trump-Russia Election Collusion
- Trump calls white supremacists "fine people" in Charlottesville
- Brett Kavanaugh is a sexual predator
- Convington Catholic boys bully Native American veteran
IMHO, these are all FAKE NEWS accounts that were intentionally meant to reflect badly on Trump and his supporters. The mistakes in reporting and narrative never fall in the other direction. No bad reporting over the past decade from the above news sources ever made Obama, Hillary, or any other Democrat look bad. If you have never seen or heard a retraction or apology when someone gets it wrong, you aren't paying attention. There was quite a lot of chatter about Covington and the role they played (or didn't play). Brett Kavanaugh was being made out to be a sexual predator and the news media was reporting that. The news media also reported that, at the end of the day, there was no proof of it. Trump did call white supremacists "fine people" There is video evidence of that. It's not what he probably meant, but it is what he said. That's his issue with words. He just spews them out. He also called Mexican's rapists. There is video of that too and a tweet I believe. Nobody every said he called all Mexican's rapists. But Trump was also not careful with his words. It seems you are suffering from your own form of media bias. It's important to read news critically. Read news from multiple sources. The news being reported is not FAKE NEWS. It's up to you to avoid confirmation bias and seek the truth. |
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Mar 23, 2019 8:00:39 GMT -8
Here is a very good read on the subject of "Fake News" or what ever you may want to deem it. I think it possible we hold the definition of a journalist in wrong context..., as we have moved so far away from a "reporter" whom reports the facts. The media in my opine has resorted to the pen of sensationalism as anything less is of little interest and certainly not marketable. Journalism Dies in Self-Importancewww.city-journal.org/media-bias
"I suppose it’s true that “Democracy Dies in Darkness,” as the Washington Post’s slogan says. But journalism may also die, by morphing into forms that can no longer be described as journalism. Journalism may come to mean a crooked scandal sheet, or high-minded propaganda. Sometimes squalor and self-righteousness are equally disreputable.""The other day, Ted Koppel, a voice from the late-twentieth-century practice of journalism, spoke about what has become of his old business in the age of Trump. “We are not the reservoir of objectivity that I think we were,” Koppel said, in an understatement. The Left always cites Fox News in this regard. He singled out the Washington Post and the New York Times, saying that they have gone overboard in their bias, transforming themselves into anti-Trump advocates. “We are not talking about the Washington Post [or New York Times] of 50 years ago,” Koppel said. “We’re talking about organizations that . . . have decided, as organizations, that Donald J. Trump is bad for the United States.”"In closing.....,
"Today, opinion and dogmatic speculation are the currency of politics and journalism. Facts have become elusive or even unnecessary, except for, say, the body counts at mass shootings. Otherwise, the world is fluid and angry and ideological. Among other things, the new journalism—more theater than journalism, a slugfest of memes—is a lot easier to practice. Much of it, on either side, is little more than noise."
|
|
|
|
Post by ProfessorFate on Mar 23, 2019 13:44:31 GMT -8
No Trump did not call all white supremacists "fine people." What he said was "There were fine people on both sides." And he was right. Not everybody there that day was a Nazi, or a KKK member, or even a white supremacist at all. Some were simply there to protest the planned removal of the Robert E. Lee statue from Lee Park.
Had I been in Charlottesville, and learned about a rally to protect the historical statue from removal, I would have been there, too. MD Dad, Luca, and I have argued in favor of keeping many (not all) historical statues in place. We are historians, and not racists or white supremacists, and I llike to think that we are "fine people" too. We were not there that day, but is it really that hard to believe that some people like us were there that day? Chances are when the violence started, those people probably left...I'm sure we would have.
Yes, Trump isn't always precise or careful with his words. The Mexican people being rapists comment was particularly clumsy, and he made a similar sloppy reference to Central American migrants also. And you are wrong about nobody ever said he called all Mexicans rapists. Some people said exactly that, and the way he expressed himself made it hard to argue with them. I just wish the man's brain worked a little faster than his mouth.
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Mar 23, 2019 19:32:08 GMT -8
No Trump did not call all white supremacists "fine people." What he said was "There were fine people on both sides." And he was right. Not everybody there that day was a Nazi, or a KKK member, or even a white supremacist at all. Some were simply there to protest the planned removal of the Robert E. Lee statue from Lee Park. I don't recall who it was that played the actual interview that served as the genesis of the nonsense that is serving as the leftist perspective that Trump call white supremacists "fine people", but after listening to the whole thing, it's pretty clear he in no way, shape or form implied the Nazi crowd was fine people. The editing so his words were taken out of context, was truly was Fake News at its finest. www.politico.com/story/2017/08/15/full-text-trump-comments-white-supremacists-alt-left-transcript-241662 |
|
Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
|
Post by Credo on Mar 24, 2019 0:08:20 GMT -8
Nobody ever said he called all Mexicans rapists.A quick Google search finds the following: www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2016/aug/08/tim-kaine/tim-kaine-falsely-says-trump-said-all-mexicans-are/Tim Kaine falsely says Trump said 'all Mexicans are rapists' in an August 2016 campaign rally.
I'd call the 2016 nominee for Vice-President making such an accusation pretty significant. Might have been picked up by a few news outlets. Many a commentator on CNN and MSNBC have repeated the same distortion of Trump's words, just as in the case of the "fine people on both sides" in Charlottesville. As Bick aptly displayed above, the assertion that Trump called white supremacists "fine people" is pure slander and a result of bad faith reporting. The official ICE figures for 2018 show 3,740 convictions of illegal immigrants for sexual assault. I assume those numbers are pretty steady going back several years. So Trump, clumsy as he may have been, was largely correct. What he was basically saying is that ANY crimes committed by people here illegally are especially outrageous and need to be prevented. www.ice.gov/doclib/about/offices/ero/pdf/eroFY2018Report.pdf
|
|
not4u13
Active Contributor
Posts: 74
|
Post by not4u13 on Mar 24, 2019 5:36:50 GMT -8
Point of clarification here. You were referring to major news sources such as CBS, NBC, etc. None of these sources for news, when reporting the news, referred to "all" Mexicans were rapists. Yes, you can find all sorts of opinion shows (some on those same stations) and individual people who pretend to be news sources saying all sorts of things. People are having a very difficult time differentiating actual news from "talk show" style opinion programs (these have become the majority of programming on 24 hour news channels, but area also increasingly popular on the major networks).
You will find all sorts of crazy statements made by all sorts of different people on a google search. My intention was to say that none of the major networks or sources for news, when reporting the news, ever stated that Trump called "all" Mexican's rapists. What Trump did do was to over generalize for the express purpose of pedaling fear. When an illegal alien commits a crime such as rape, it is no more or less outrageous than when someone here legally does it. The victim is still a victim and the perpetrator is still a scumbag. Putting all illegal aliens into the same basket with rapists is like putting all of any group into the same basket with rapists. We aren't looking to vilify an entire group just because some in the group are "bad hombres". That's what Trump wants us all to do though. He makes no bones about it. So while he never said that all Mexicans are rapists, he certainly doesn't care if anyone wants to make that assumption as long as it furthers his agenda.
|
|
not4u13
Active Contributor
Posts: 74
|
Post by not4u13 on Mar 24, 2019 5:48:51 GMT -8
No Trump did not call all white supremacists "fine people." What he said was "There were fine people on both sides." And he was right. Not everybody there that day was a Nazi, or a KKK member, or even a white supremacist at all. Some were simply there to protest the planned removal of the Robert E. Lee statue from Lee Park. I don't recall who it was that played the actual interview that served as the genesis of the nonsense that is serving as the leftist perspective that Trump call white supremacists "fine people", but after listening to the whole thing, it's pretty clear he in no way, shape or form implied the Nazi crowd was fine people. The editing so his words were taken out of context, was truly was Fake News at its finest. www.politico.com/story/2017/08/15/full-text-trump-comments-white-supremacists-alt-left-transcript-241662I think you see the problem with the above dialog, or maybe you don't. First of all, these statues are not really historical monuments. They were erected for the sole purpose of sending a message to our black citizens that the laws in that state or locality favored white supremacy. It was a way of ensuring the black folks knew their place. It was unmistakable the reason they were erected and the timeframe they were erected in. Removing them isn't removing a piece of history. It's sending a message that those days are over and all men really are created equal. Why do we even try and honor leaders of the south when they were fighting for something that our country fought against and won? Then Trump comes out in the interview and instead of taking the opportunity to clearly denounce white supremacists when specifically asked about them, he punts. He equivocates. Refusing to specifically denounce a hate group when asked is just as bad as coming out in support of them. I'm surprised that you don't seem to agree with that. I mean, if he had come out and said yes, the white supremacists that were there did not have good intentions and I don't support their agenda, he would have also been correct. He could also have said that some of those opposing the white supremacists were also there with bad intentions and their presence escalated the violence, making the situation worse. He still would have been chastised by the left, but he would have made himself very clear on his position against white supremacists. He won't do that though. Just like he wouldn't denounce David Duke and pretended he didn't know who he was or what he stood for. |
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Mar 24, 2019 11:14:27 GMT -8
If you have never seen or heard a retraction or apology when someone gets it wrong, you aren't paying attention... Two quick points on that. First, an erroneous article typically is on the front page or is a lead story (often for days), while the retraction is buried on page 9 next to the underwear ads one time. I have never seen a news outlet print a retraction and/or apology as a lead or with equal coverage as the error. Second, those libeled in the Covington coverage asked all of the offending parties to retract & apologize and gave them something like 3 days to issue said apology. Those who didn't ended up getting sued. |
|
