RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Mar 24, 2019 11:43:34 GMT -8
...First of all, these statues are not really historical monuments. They were erected for the sole purpose of sending a message to our black citizens that the laws in that state or locality favored white supremacy. It was a way of ensuring the black folks knew their place. It was unmistakable the reason they were erected and the timeframe they were erected in. Removing them isn't removing a piece of history. It's sending a message that those days are over and all men really are created equal. Why do we even try and honor leaders of the south when they were fighting for something that our country fought against and won? ... There is too much in that paragraph to not address: - Even if that statue was as you claim, only there to send a message, that message is a historical one. It involves events that took place in history (slavery, the Civil War) as opposed to some type of modern art. It is by essence a historical monument.
- Claiming that the reason the statues were erected was to send a message to black people involves you reading minds and the assumption that every single person involved in the creation & erection of the statue all thought exactly the same way. Neither of those things are possible.
- Removing the statue sends a message because it is removing a piece of history. Removing a shrub from my front lawn does not send a message, other than that I don't like the shrub or lawncare in general (messages most folks couldn't care less about).
- We honor leaders of the South (and the confederate soldiers as well) because they were American military. You can't be on the side declaring that succession was illegal, that the Southern states could not leave the United States and then claim that the Confederate soldiers weren't American military.
Many people take the view you do because their perception of the Civil War was that it was a war to free the slaves. They completely dismiss the perception of the Southern states, that this was a War of Northern aggression, that the reason for the war wasn't to end slavery but to force the Southern states to act in a manner they did not want to willingly do. An accurate description would be that when abolishing slavery was finally gaining momentum in the country, the South did the right thing (succeeding from the union) for a bad reason (to preserve slavery). The North did the wrong thing (initiating war to force the south to stay in the union) for a good reason (to end slavery).
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Bick
Administrator 
Posts: 6,900
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Post by Bick on Mar 24, 2019 11:55:47 GMT -8
I think you see the problem with the above dialog, or maybe you don't. First of all, these statues are not really historical monuments. They were erected for the sole purpose of sending a message to our black citizens that the laws in that state or locality favored white supremacy. It was a way of ensuring the black folks knew their place. It was unmistakable the reason they were erected and the timeframe they were erected in. Removing them isn't removing a piece of history. It's sending a message that those days are over and all men really are created equal. Why do we even try and honor leaders of the south when they were fighting for something that our country fought against and won? Then Trump comes out in the interview and instead of taking the opportunity to clearly denounce white supremacists when specifically asked about them, he punts. He equivocates. Refusing to specifically denounce a hate group when asked is just as bad as coming out in support of them. I'm surprised that you don't seem to agree with that. I mean, if he had come out and said yes, the white supremacists that were there did not have good intentions and I don't support their agenda, he would have also been correct. He could also have said that some of those opposing the white supremacists were also there with bad intentions and their presence escalated the violence, making the situation worse. He still would have been chastised by the left, but he would have made himself very clear on his position against white supremacists. He won't do that though. Just like he wouldn't denounce David Duke and pretended he didn't know who he was or what he stood for. The portion of the transcript I copied doesn't adequately represent the flavor of the press conference. It's over 20 minutes long, but should give you a much different perspective of the way the press was clearly trying to trap him into a soundbyte that could be, and WAS, used to further the narrative Trump is a racist. That press conference was subsequent to meetings about infrastructure, and how the administration cut out a bunch of red tape to enable a faster permitting process. Not one question about infrastructure came from the press. As for the statues, I had not heard they were erected for the sole purpose of sending a message to black citizens. Regardless of that assertion, what Trump said, correctly I believe, was that there were non Neo-Nazis there to protest their removal. That said, I don't know if I'm objective enough to argue the validity of the concerns of either side. My concern with this stuff is that it opens the door for any group deciding it's offended by a name or monument, to be able to demand its change or removal. It's yet another example of the power being conferred upon those identifying as victims. It's no surprise the rush to become a victim is in such vogue today. |
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
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Post by Credo on Mar 24, 2019 21:05:32 GMT -8
Good spirited discussion. Don't think we could see this on TOB without charges of "racist" or "Nazi" or "dupe" being leveled at the very get-go.
I tend not to agree with not4u13 on the substance of this Statue controversy but I respect his point of view, which has been made very thoughtfully.
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Credo
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,242
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Post by Credo on Mar 25, 2019 14:10:58 GMT -8
These latest polling #'s will explode some heads at CNN and MSNBC.
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SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
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Post by SK80 on Mar 26, 2019 7:59:17 GMT -8
From a blogger whom I have read before..., interesting take and read...., he was a "NEVER TRUMPER". I'll paste the opening and ending paragraphs. March 26, 2019Donald Trump, the bewildering black swan"They shot at the king, but they didn't kill him. And because they didn't destroy him, they only made him stronger. If, a year from now, the economy is robust, Trump will be re-elected in an historic landslide. His enemies have played right into his hands." Read more: www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/03/donald_trump_the_bewildering_black_swan.html#ixzz5jIHBDks4 "As it turns out, Donald Trump is an authentic political genius, unique, one of a kind, never to be seen again, a political phenomenon. Who knew? God bless America, and God bless President Trump." |
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Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
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Post by Bick on Apr 5, 2019 14:12:14 GMT -8
You can clearly put this one on the con side. Are you kidding me with this crap? Great clap back by Biden.
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
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Post by davidsf on Apr 5, 2019 16:06:26 GMT -8
I disagree with not4u13’s conclusions.
As I re-read the dialogue, I was struck immediately with the thought “this is what happens when the President is not properly prepared.” This president (neither any president whom I can bring to mind at the moment) should N-E-V-E-R ... ever speak unscripted. I’m not talking about him becoming a talking head, with Teleprompters everywhere. But He should not speak off-the-cuff like I see him to have done in that interview. He was stuttering and fumbling for words and he not only delivered a tag line the haters can use (and have used) against him but as you pointed out, he seemed equivocal as to whether the event was even bad.
All that crapola about pulling down a statue is just that. We should not allow (or condone) pulling down ANYTHING, just because someone is suddenly (and irrationally) offended. If the community wants to remove it, then let the community (and not just one faction) Act. However, for the “other” group to even show up is I’ll advised. Not they they should not express their opinion(s), but any fool can see that particular situation will not end well.
Which, I suppose, COULD have been the point of the white supremacists in the first place...
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not4u13
Active Contributor
Posts: 74
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Post by not4u13 on Apr 6, 2019 5:30:39 GMT -8
I'll agree with all of you that the press was, in fact, baiting Trump AND that Trump was wholly unprepared for the questions. His answers were arrogant (as usual), insensitive (as usual) and uninformed (as usual). Even assuming the press was baiting him, I can't understand how the leader of the free world cannot immediately understand that the root cause of the violence was racism. Even though there were, in fact, bad actors on "both sides", the primary point of the questions and the issue facing the nation at the time were the white supremacists whose sole purpose of being there was to further their agenda to marginalize and oppress blacks. They made a public spectacle of being there and outright challenged anyone to stop them. When someone came to do so, there was violence (SURPRISE). Why would Trump be so ill prepared? How is that even possible?
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
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Post by MDDad on Apr 6, 2019 7:41:27 GMT -8
I can't understand how the leader of the free world cannot immediately understand that the root cause of the violence was racism. Why would Trump be so ill prepared? How is that even possible? Uh, because Trump really isn't all that bright. And the fact that he thinks he's brilliant convinces him that he's prepared for anything. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Apr 6, 2019 14:13:54 GMT -8
I can't understand how the leader of the free world cannot immediately understand that the root cause of the violence was racism. Why would Trump be so ill prepared? How is that even possible? Uh, because Trump really isn't all that bright. And the fact that he thinks he's brilliant convinces him that he's prepared for anything. We should not skip over this point. he is NOT all that intelligent, but (and this is a key, here), he believes he IS capable and he believes he has a mandate from the American people. on some things, he does... but on,others, he does not. For those reasons alone, he dismisses his hand,eres which he, in particular, should never do. Let those people around you, whom YOU HAVE PICKED, mold you into a respectable President (if not person). |
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on Apr 6, 2019 14:56:21 GMT -8
Authored multiple books, econ degree from Wharton, self-made billionaire, oh and became president doing it HIS way...inspite of what all of us think.
Not sure how you guys are measuring intellect, but his accomplishments alone pass my smell test in that regard.
Childish...yeah. Braggart...check. Uncouth...yep. Lacking intellect...not so fast, sports fans.
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
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Post by MDDad on Apr 6, 2019 16:07:05 GMT -8
Childish...yeah. Braggart...check. Uncouth...yep. Lacking intellect...not so fast, sports fans. So in other words, he's like a really smart five-year-old, right? I don't know about you, but a guy with that personal resume is not one I'm comfortable with in the Oval Office. To the endless list of negative adjectives that can be assigned to Trump, one of the more important is that he has a hair-trigger emotional response to everything that he perceives as negative, and he verbalizes it as policy. That's why he changes his mind almost every day. And he has absolutely no personal self-control, as evidenced by the silliness of what comes out of his mouth, and the obvious volume of what he shovels into it. Look, I'll admit it. We've all had people in our lives who piss us off just at the sight of them, and Donald Trump is one of those people for me. It's unfortunate that he's the president and many people look up to him. Unlike the dudes on TOB, I'm relieved that the evidence suggests he's not a traitor, but that does not exonerate him from being a childish pig. |
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Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
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Post by Luca on Apr 6, 2019 16:43:17 GMT -8
You guys must have a boat load of free time. I can't keep up with all these threads and posts. So, I'm sorry if I'm regurgitating previously discussed topics, but a few observations:
I think it's evidently counter-intuitive to say that Donald Trump is not a bright guy. They don't just hand out degrees at Wharton. It's a bit difficult to become a billionaire in the competitive New York real estate market. It's hard to turn your surname into a band competitive with, say, Ritz Carlton. It's hard to get elected POTUS.
You can become POTUS even with curious personality defects, as we have seen with Andrew Jackson, Andrew Johnson, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. They don't appear to hold you back too much. Donald Trump probably has more than all 4 of them combined but it doesn't indicate absence of significant intelligence.
Given his deficiencies the economy is functioning better than it has in years, he is reducing the leftist predominance in the US judicial system, he has at least temporarily quieted the escalating rhetoric of that North Korean shithead, he has made European allies - piss and moan as they might - aware that they have to step up their contributions if they want to rely on US military protection. He is even if in directly exposing the pauacity/foolishness of Democratic policies. Like no one else he has opened all of our eyes to the hypocrisy and bias in American media. If his political opponents continue with their irrational hysteria he is probably going to get reelected.
That may or may not be the best outcome, but he is slowly succeeding in accomplishing what he wanted to do. We are all familiar with Americans who are personally offensive but got the difficult job done: Douglas McArthur, Steve Jobs, J. Edgar Hoover, Leslie Groves, ad infinitum. As the paraphrase goes, we should all be so stupid.........
History is my hobby, particularly the Civil War. I don't like the concept of removing relics because they don't fit with the standards of the day, but the more I think about it, it's hard to get too upset about removing statues of Jeb Stuart or Stonewall Jackson or (especially) Nathan Forrest given that they are becoming becoming symbolic flash points. I'm still a little partial to Robert E, Lee, but I'll get over it. I don't see them as offensive but I could see where others do and we do need to try to get along with each other.
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not4u13
Active Contributor
Posts: 74
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Post by not4u13 on Apr 7, 2019 5:32:49 GMT -8
Trump really isn't that bright. He does have influence though and that is often enough to carry the day. His total wealth is questionable. Much of it is smoke and mirrors. Trump learned how to create a power base but his manipulation to get there is not based on intellect. It's a bully pulpit. Proof that he really isn't that bright is that he just continues to repeat the same patterns over and over again. It's like throwing spaghetti at the wall. Throw enough up there and some of it will stick. He had enough money to make many different bets and many of those bets failed, but enough of them succeeded that he has been able to continuously repeat the pattern.
I believe he is fighting so hard to prevent the release of his tax returns because he doesn't want people to see what's really in there. All the losses he reports to limit his tax liability does not align with the image he has created. Once people start to learn how really weak he is, his bully tactics won't work and things around him will crumble. It has already started and it will continue. Where he ends up is anyone's guess.
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
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Post by davidsf on Apr 7, 2019 10:14:01 GMT -8
Authored multiple books, econ degree from Wharton, self-made billionaire, oh and became president doing it HIS way...inspite of what all of us think. Not sure how you guys are measuring intellect, but his accomplishments alone pass my smell test in that regard. Childish...yeah. Braggart...check. Uncouth...yep. Lacking intellect...not so fast, sports fans. I count intelligence as, street smarts. Not just knowing facts, but knowing how to use them as well as know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away, know when to run...intelligence also involves surrounding one self with “experts” and, then, listening to them... |
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