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Post by vilepagan on Nov 10, 2019 10:23:38 GMT -8
How idiotic to suggest they are claiming victimhood. Don't you have any other arguments?
C'mon Dave, what happened to all your religious arguments against gays? You know, the ones you trotted out about how gay marriage was wrong, and how gays shouldn't be allowed in the military. You were wrong about those issues but maybe now you can be right and keep gays from buying t-shirts at the same shop where you get your clean, decent, Christian t-shirts covered with those god-approved messages.
Your lack of compassion for your fellow men is unbecoming a Christian, and you should be ashamed.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Nov 10, 2019 16:45:46 GMT -8
Those arguments were figments of your imagination. There are no CHRISTIAN arguments against gays other than the proscription all of us face against sin, which homosexuality assuredly is, but so is lying, and gossiping, and everything else we humans tend to place between us and God.
Quit playing such a victim. If you are hated, it is because of your treatment of others and has nothing to do with your aberrant sexual choices.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Nov 10, 2019 17:25:02 GMT -8
...If you are hated, it is because of your treatment of others and has nothing to do with your aberrant sexual choices. VP, this is one of those times in your life where it is best to listen to the message without your bias towards the messenger, because he is 100% correct. In my terminology, I would phrase it "If you are hated, it is because you are a dick, not because you like dick". Dave is actually a bit nicer than I am |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Nov 10, 2019 18:55:24 GMT -8
...If you are hated, it is because of your treatment of others and has nothing to do with your aberrant sexual choices. VP, this is one of those times in your life where it is best to listen to the message without your bias towards the messenger, because he is 100% correct. In my terminology, I would phrase it "If you are hated, it is because you are a dick, not because you like dick". Dave is actually a bit nicer than I am As a practical matter, I can guarantee he will ignore the sage wisdom from both of us. |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Nov 10, 2019 23:03:35 GMT -8
Why is your religious freedom more important than mine? --and that was the whole point of the KY Supreme Court ruling, as well as the other cases involving similar circumstances. No one has a right to require another person to violate their religious beliefs--or to force them to act in a way that does so. My right to exercise my beliefs is greater than your desire to have me violate them. The printer was not trying to force his beliefs on anyone; it was the customer who was trying to force his beliefs on the printer. Same with the Colorado baker and the Washington florist, and so on. It's a pretty simple concept....called freedom. There's positive freedom (the freedom to act--as long as it doesn't physically harm others) and there's negative freedom (the freedom NOT to be forced to do certain things). In a civil society, when we have reached a stalemate between two equally held rights, then we simply agree to disagree and go our separate ways. If everybody involved would have simply listened to some Dave Mason, they could have saved a lot of money on attorney's fees.
So let's leave it alone 'cause we can't see eye to eye
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy
There's only you and me and we just disagree
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 11, 2019 4:54:21 GMT -8
I have no desire to force anyone to violate their religious beliefs. However, I don't see baking a cake, or printing something on a t-shirt, as an exercise of religious belief. These are businesses. They are secular in nature.
Do your religious beliefs allow you to avoid paying taxes because the money will be used for non-Christian things, or to promote a non-Christian message? No. The religious are told to suck it up and that they should "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"
Good advice.
I feel that people shouldn't bring their religion to work. You should keep it at home, and in your church of choice. Certainly if you have a business license issued by the state, you shouldn't discriminate against your fellow citizens who have granted you that license to do business.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 11, 2019 5:05:51 GMT -8
So you didn't argue at length against homosexuality from a Christian perspective...ok.
Well that's a relief. No Christian arguments against homosexuality other than it's a sin. Great.
I'm not a victim. Quit believing you victimize me in some way. You and your backward views have no power over me whatsoever. Are we clear on that?
I don't believe I'm hated...do you?
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 11, 2019 5:08:00 GMT -8
Oh Dave, I come here just to read your 'sabe' wisdom.  |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Nov 11, 2019 6:05:25 GMT -8
... I also guarantee he cannot argue with the points we make, so he will settle for taking issue with a misspelling.
What a maroon.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Nov 11, 2019 6:44:51 GMT -8
I'm not sure what anyone's experience is here as a business owner, but what qualifies as discrimination today has jumped the shark IMNSHO.
Further, no provision of the Constitution has ever been interpreted to apply rules of equal protection directly to private entities, that would stop a private business from discriminating against others on the basis of race, sex, or religion.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 11, 2019 9:44:42 GMT -8
But I did Dave...can you not understand what I posted?
Your guarantees aren't worth much are they...
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Nov 11, 2019 13:27:09 GMT -8
If I were half of a gay married couple, the last thing I would want to do is patronize a bakery whose baker looked down on me or my marriage. I'd much rather go a block of the street and give my business to someone with different views. If you force a baker to bake a cake against his religious beliefs, you never know what "secret ingredient" might be added to it, much like Octavia Spencer did in The Help.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Nov 11, 2019 22:11:16 GMT -8
I have no desire to force anyone to violate their religious beliefs. However, I don't see baking a cake, or printing something on a t-shirt, as an exercise of religious belief. These are businesses. They are secular in nature. "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" Good advice. I feel that people shouldn't bring their religion to work. You should keep it at home, and in your church of choice. Certainly if you have a business license issued by the state, you shouldn't discriminate against your fellow citizens who have granted you that license to do business. Not being a person of faith yourself, this is not surprising--and no knock against you. But the Kentucky Supreme court disagreed with you on a 6-0 count. I suspect if--and when--such a case gets to the SCOTUS, there will be a similar vote, likely 9-0. The right to free speech also includes the right not to be forced to "speak" in certain ways, which is what the printer shop owner felt he was being asked to do. I love the "render unto Caesar" words that were given by Jesus himself. Excellent advice. But when Caesar begins to usurp the place of God, claiming to determine what is true or reasonable religious belief, and tries to force citizens to violate what they believe they must render to God--then we have a problem. Again, there was no discrimination based solely on the person's sexual orientation. It is clear in all these case that the business owners in question served gay customers quite frequently. What they objected to were particular messages, including those completely unrelated to homosexuality that they felt were offensive. And what "right", exactly, were these people being denied? The right to demand that any print shop they walk into must print any t-shirt that customer wants? Now if the government was saying you couldn't request an LGBTQ shirt to be printed, or forbade all printers from making such shirts, then that would be a different issue. Just remember that, according to your logic, the gay printer could NOT turn down a request for a "God hates fags" t-shirt, nor could the Muslim printer refuse to make a "Muhammad was a pedophile" sign, nor could the Jewish printer demur in reproducing Neo-Nazi designs. Now that's a world I would NOT want to live in. |
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 12, 2019 4:24:14 GMT -8
I can understand how you feel but that's not really the point is it. Blacks can always go to another lunch counter but we've decided as a society that such discrimination is wrong, and I don't think we should retreat from that position in the name of "religious freedom".
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 12, 2019 4:29:44 GMT -8
Only peripherally. Again, I don't think "faith" has much place in the workplace.
Well, you have a problem. I really don't buy into that mystical nonsense.
You may have a point. There may be mitigating circumstances in this particular case but without much more detail about these allegations I see no point in discussing them.
The right to live in our society unfettered by arbitrary discrimination.
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