Bick
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Post by Bick on Nov 12, 2019 7:09:47 GMT -8
Are you OK with discrimination on the basis of political beliefs?
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Nov 12, 2019 8:55:03 GMT -8
I can understand how you feel but that's not really the point is it. Blacks can always go to another lunch counter but we've decided as a society that such discrimination is wrong, and I don't think we should retreat from that position in the name of "religious freedom". I don't think we should retreat from the black discrimination position in the name of religious freedom either, but that's because black discrimination is not based on scripture or religious beliefs. The refusal to recognize gay marriage is. So you are trying to draw an apples to oranges equivalency. |
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 12, 2019 10:25:42 GMT -8
According to you. Many other people disagree. Who are you to tell them their views are not based on the Bible?
In 1964, frustrated by their inability to travel together to visit their families in Virginia, as well as their social isolation and financial difficulties in Washington, Mildred Loving wrote in protest to Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy. Kennedy referred her to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). The ACLU assigned volunteer cooperating attorneys Bernard S. Cohen and Philip J. Hirschkop, who filed a motion on behalf of the Lovings in the Virginia Caroline County Circuit Court, that requested the court to vacate the criminal judgments and set aside the Lovings' sentences on the grounds that the Virginia miscegenation statutes ran counter to the Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection Clause.
On October 28, 1964, after waiting almost a year for a response to their motion, the ACLU attorneys brought a class action suit in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. This prompted the county court judge in the case, Leon M. Bazile (1890–1967), to issue a ruling on the long-pending motion to vacate. Echoing Johann Friedrich Blumenbach's 18th-century interpretation of race, Bazile wrote:
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.
As you can see above, religion has been used by people to justify their discrimination against black people so I guess I'm comparing apples to apples after all.
Would you be ok with someone telling an interracial couple that "god doesn't want me to bake a cake for you because he doesn't approve of your marriage", or would you just say he's full of crap and he should bake the cake anyway?
The only issue here is are we as a society willing to accept discrimination in the name of religious freedom or are we going to denounce the discrimination as religious bigotry. I vote for the latter.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 12, 2019 10:26:20 GMT -8
I don't know...what sort of discrimination?
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Nov 12, 2019 14:05:50 GMT -8
Being a:
Republican
Democrat
Socialist
Facsist
Communist
Nazi
Klansman
Does it matter what one believes, or what shirt, hat or tattoo someone has?
Should a Jewish baker be compelled to bake a cake with a swastika? It's just a cake, right?
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Nov 13, 2019 0:07:05 GMT -8
According to you. Many other people disagree. Who are you to tell them their views are not based on the Bible? In 1964, frustrated by their inability to travel together to visit their families in Virginia, as well as their social isolation and financial difficulties in Washington, Mildred Loving wrote in protest to Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy. Kennedy referred her to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). The ACLU assigned volunteer cooperating attorneys Bernard S. Cohen and Philip J. Hirschkop, who filed a motion on behalf of the Lovings in the Virginia Caroline County Circuit Court, that requested the court to vacate the criminal judgments and set aside the Lovings' sentences on the grounds that the Virginia miscegenation statutes ran counter to the Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection Clause.
On October 28, 1964, after waiting almost a year for a response to their motion, the ACLU attorneys brought a class action suit in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. This prompted the county court judge in the case, Leon M. Bazile (1890–1967), to issue a ruling on the long-pending motion to vacate. Echoing Johann Friedrich Blumenbach's 18th-century interpretation of race, Bazile wrote:
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.
is your evidence for attributing black discrimination to religious beliefs? One kook judge in Virginia quoting an even nuttier German thinker--that no one has ever heard of--and his 18th century ideas??? You've got to be kidding me. And the quote from Blumenbach is not only grossly ignorant of history and geography, but is also completely disconnected from any religious idea found in the Bible or historic Christianity. This isn't apples to apples. It isn't even apples and oranges. It's apples and a platypus. Here's the authentic Biblical and Christian teaching on equality (or non-discrimination, if you will): For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatian 3:26-28) Christians of all races were on the front lines of the Civil Rights movement--and, arguably, it was precisely the ideals of Christianity that even made such a movement possible. Any person who tries to use religion as a justification for racial bias is blaspheming God; and those who have done so have only discredited themselves. |
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 13, 2019 4:47:30 GMT -8
No, he shouldn't. But of course that falls under what we call "hate speech". I think you need to find a better example.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 13, 2019 4:55:57 GMT -8
Why would I be kidding?
I'm glad you think so. There's hope.
Of course it is...just because you don't like it doesn't make it an invalid comparison.
Your opinion on what's correct Christian teaching really isn't relevant to what we're discussing.
Again, I'm glad you think so but your beliefs aren't what we're discussing. What we're discussing is that some Christians used their faith to justify discrimination against blacks, and it's been clearly demonstrated that they did, and not in a minor or insignificant way.
The salient point here is that we didn't let people claim they were discriminating against blacks for religious reasons, and we shouldn't allow them to hide behind their "faith" and do so to gay people.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Nov 13, 2019 9:03:52 GMT -8
Again, I'm glad you think so but your beliefs aren't what we're discussing. What we're discussing is that some Christians used their faith to justify discrimination against blacks, and it's been clearly demonstrated that they did, and not in a minor or insignificant way. The salient point here is that we didn't let people claim they were discriminating against blacks for religious reasons, and we shouldn't allow them to hide behind their "faith" and do so to gay people. Might be true, might not be (and probably is not) but - Nothing you have presented so far proves it either way (I mean, examples from 50 years ago? Pretty stupid)
- Quit trying to associate your victim hood with racism. Races have no choice but to be as God created them. Fulfilling homosexual preferences is a choice.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Nov 13, 2019 9:18:57 GMT -8
No, he shouldn't. But of course that falls under what we call "hate speech". I think you need to find a better example. How is a symbol on a cake that a private citizen plans to consume at his own private event qualify as hate speech? |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Nov 13, 2019 9:31:42 GMT -8
- Nothing you have presented so far proves it either way (I mean, examples from 50 years ago? Pretty stupid)
VP has a bad habit of googling the points he's arguing with other posters and responding with the first hit that comes up. That's why the evidence to support his positions is sometimes so off-the-wall silly. Like when he insisted Robert E. Lee owned slaves, and his evidence came from an author who is widely considered the Oliver Stone of Civil War "historians". |
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 13, 2019 9:57:21 GMT -8
Do I really need to explain to you why a Jewish baker might be highly offended at being asked to put a swastika on a cake? How about a black baker being asked to put clansmen and a lynched black person on a cake?
I'm sure you could come with some sort of repulsive sexual scene that any baker would refuse to make...what exactly are you trying to say?
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 13, 2019 9:58:40 GMT -8
And you have a bad habit of popping into threads to make some stupid comment about me rather than discussing the topic. I guess we both have bad habits. Carry on.
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Post by vilepagan on Nov 13, 2019 10:06:01 GMT -8
It's unclear to what you are referring...do you dispute that the account I posted happened? Why exactly is the example stupid? It happened during my lifetime, I don't know about you..not like it's ancient history.
Ahh, the old "choice" argument...tell me, were you born a Christian or did you choose to be one? I think you made more of a choice than I did.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Nov 13, 2019 10:16:40 GMT -8
Do I really need to explain to you why a Jewish baker might be highly offended at being asked to put a swastika on a cake? How about a black baker being asked to put clansmen and a lynched black person on a cake? I'm sure you could come with some sort of repulsive sexual scene that any baker would refuse to make...what exactly are you trying to say? I certainly understand why a Jewish baker would be offended being asked to put a swastika on a cake,and agree he shouldn't have to serve them. But I also think that same baker shouldn't be compelled to serve any other group he finds offensive. |
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