RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Sept 13, 2020 14:23:15 GMT -8
So the basis of my argument against Brady being the GOAT QB is that I believe many other QB's could have been put in his place and achieved the same results. That is not meant to demean what Brady accomplished, he has those six Super Bowl rings. Rather, I place the main credit for that accomplishment at the feet of Bill Belichick. I felt this season might shed light on whether my theory was correct, now that Brady is at Tampa Bay and Cam Newton has slid in the QB slot at New England.
Week one gives credibility to my hypothesis. Cam Newton led the Patriots to a win, breaking a two game losing streak the Patriots had with Brady at the helm. Further, the win was against the Dolphins, who last year beat the Patriots at Gillette stadium to end the season and cost the Patriots a bye week. The change in QB gave a different result this time for the Pats as they easily handled their division rival.
Meanwhile, the Bucs have just started the 3rd quarter, but already Brady has not made a difference. He has thrown 2 interceptions, including a pick six, and the big gains on passing plays have come from pass interference calls as opposed to completions. The Bucs lost to the Saints twice last year and so far, it looks like Brady has made no difference to this team. Unless Brady leads a comeback, this first game could have featured Jameis Winston at QB and the result would have been the same.
Week One - RSM789 is leading MDDad 1-0
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Luca
Master Statesman
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Post by Luca on Sept 13, 2020 15:16:09 GMT -8
..........I would say Russell bested Chamberlain in Defensive skill, passing, durability, ball handling, teamwork & toughness, with rebounding being a toss up and Chamberlain winning the others. The NBA is not a skills competition and there are so many intangibles that go into making a team win, that the results need to play into the choice (the way I look at it)...... if you are going to argue that someone is the greatest of all time, there is no way they should lose a title game in the peak of their playing career. The record indicates that Chamberlain averaged more assists throughout his career than did Russell. Chamberlain even lead the league in assists whereas Russell never came close. You would have expected Russell to lead in this category since Chamberlain was obligated to shoot and score whereas Russell was not Regarding durability: In his 13-year career, Russell averaged missing 8 games per season while Chamberlain in his 15 years averaged only 2-1/2 (with the exception of 1 year when he tore his patellar tendon). Chamberlain typically played 48 minutes per game and Russell did not come close to that. As far as toughness is concerned, nobody to my knowledge ever physically challenged Chamberlain on a court. We are talking about Wilt Chamberlain, you understand, not Neville. Chamberlain averaged more rebounds per season over his career than did Russell and he also out-rebounded Russell in direct competition (Which reminds me of a great line. Chamberlain once said that he could out rebound Abdul Jabbar in his sleep and Kareem responded with " Yeah, his dreams are the only place he could do it.") As you agreed, scoring and strength were not even close................ It's true that the NBA is not a skills competition, it's a team competition - meaning that the best teams win, not necessarily the best individual players. Championships go to the best teams, but I don't recall ever hearing anyone hold that championships determine the best or even better individual player. All else being equal it would be a factor, but between Chamberlain and Russell all else is not that close to being equal. (Out of courtesy, I ask the audience to hold its applause)......................................Luca |
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Bick
Administrator 
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Post by Bick on Sept 13, 2020 15:25:02 GMT -8
C'mon RSM. You can't evaluate Brady objectively at his age.
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by MDDad on Sept 13, 2020 15:26:13 GMT -8
Oh, God, Luca, now you've gone and done it. You used objective measurements and the concept of "the best teams win championships, and not necessarily the best players." I hope you're ready for weeks of nonsensical pushback.
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by MDDad on Sept 13, 2020 15:28:13 GMT -8
C'mon RSM. You can't evaluate Brady objectively at his age. C'mon yourself, Bick. A 43-year-old quarterback who can't lead a mediocre team to a win over a team that was 13-3 last year proves he can't be the GOAT. I'll bet Babe Ruth had days he went 0 for 4 with a couple strikeouts in his last year with the Boston Braves when he was 40. I suppose that should take him out of the GOAT conversation as well. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Sept 13, 2020 20:45:18 GMT -8
(Out of courtesy, I ask the audience to hold its applause)......................................Luca You are correct that basketball is a team sport, but basketball, more than any other of the big 4 sports, can be won by 1 dominant player surrounded by a team of competent ones (such as Jordan's Bulls). If you have 3 great players on a team, it is difficult to not win a championship, unless you are typically bested by another team with 3 great players. I say this because Chamberlains teams were not him and a bunch of YMCA players. When he started with the Warriors, he had a pair of hall of fame guards with him (Tom Gola & Paul Arazin) and when the club moved to San Francisco, he had Nate Thurman and later Rick Barry. When he went back to Philadelphia, he was teamed with Hal Greer & Chet Walker and his Laker playing days featured Elgin Baylor and Jerry West. Yet despite all that talent, Chamberlain still found a way to go 2-4 in championship series. The expectation of what a GOAT should do should be much higher than that. One on one, Chamberlain would have beat Russell 99% of the times they played. However, the results when it counted was Russell's teams beat Chamberlains teams 7 times in 8 playoff or championship series. Chamberlain never beat Russell for a title, his teams had to beat the Warriors and Knicks to get Championships. If you can't beat someone, how can you legitimately claim you are better than them? If Chamberlain was more dominant & had enough talent around him to win, why could he not beat Russell? I think it comes down to the intangibles. A great example is Kareem Abdul Jabbar when he played before Magic and later when he played with Magic. Kareem could win titles without Magic, he did it at UCLA and with Oscar Robertson. However, it took Magic (& a Lakers team influenced by Magic) to reinvigorate Kareem to do what it took to win, not to just score & rebound, a bad habit he had gotten into in the mid 70's. A great example was the 1985 series against the Celtics, where Kareem & the Lakers got run off the court by the Celtics in game one. Rather than sulk or just go about his business, one of the greatest players in the game found another level and led the Lakers to win 4 of the next 5 games. That Kareem didn't exist for years after leaving John Woodens side, it took someone who could make his teammates better (Magic) for him to reappear after years of hibernation. Russell was like Magic, getting the best out of his players. Put that together with his skills and what his team accomplished, it makes no sense to not consider Russell the NBA GOAT. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Sept 13, 2020 21:00:10 GMT -8
C'mon RSM. You can't evaluate Brady objectively at his age. I will happily accept that argument if it is also applied to the last 5 years of his career in New England, when the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls. Part of the reason people believe Brady is GOAT QB is because he has 6 Super Bowl titles. Well, the last 3 titles were when he was 37, 39 & 41 years of age. If Brady is going to get credit for being the major reason why the Patriots won those Super Bowls (& thereby, qualifying him as GOAT QB), then his results at age 43 can be evaluated as well. If we are going to throw out whatever happens this year because of Brady's age, fine, then throw out the last 3 Super Bowls he won & the one they lost as being something he was responsible for. That puts his Super Bowl record at 3-2, good, but not GOAT material. MDDad ignores Brady's age when the Patriots accomplish something, giving all the accolades to Tommy, but then uses it as a shield when Brady falls on his face. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Sept 13, 2020 21:11:07 GMT -8
... A 43-year-old quarterback who can't lead a mediocre team to a win... Well, it was just week one, Tommy may lead the Bucs to snap off an 8 game winning streak and a shot at the division title. Or he may flounder and make Tampa worse off. We shall see. Currently Brady is riding a 3 game losing streak and has thrown pick 6's in back to back games. As far as calling Tampa Bay a "mediocre" team, you may want to check out your definition of that word. That word does not mean what you think it means. Tampa was listed as at 12-1 to win the Super Bowl (6-1 to make it), the same odds given to Seattle & Dallas. Only 4 teams were rated above them, the Chiefs, Ravens, 49ers & Saints. So the people who make a living betting on the outcome of these games don't agree with your assessment of the 2020 Tampa Bay Bucs. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Sept 13, 2020 21:13:06 GMT -8
Oh, God, Luca, now you've gone and done it. You used objective measurements and the concept of "the best teams win championships, and not necessarily the best players." You remind me of the poker player who loses week after week and blames his bad luck. |
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,815
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Post by MDDad on Sept 13, 2020 21:33:02 GMT -8
As far as calling Tampa Bay a "mediocre" team, you may want to check out your definition of that word. That word does not mean what you think it means. Tampa was listed as at 12-1 to win the Super Bowl (6-1 to make it), the same odds given to Seattle & Dallas. Only 4 teams were rated above them, the Chiefs, Ravens, 49ers & Saints. So the people who make a living betting on the outcome of these games don't agree with your assessment of the 2020 Tampa Bay Bucs. In the last three seasons, Tampa Bay has been 5-11, 5-11 and 7-9. That is the very definition of mediocre. In fact, it's a compliment to call them that. If they are now 6-1 to get to the Super Bowl, it's because they picked up one key player. And remember, odds are not set on the expected outcome, they are set to get roughly equal numbers of ill-informed people to bet both sides of the line. |
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by MDDad on Sept 13, 2020 21:35:02 GMT -8
Oh, God, Luca, now you've gone and done it. You used objective measurements and the concept of "the best teams win championships, and not necessarily the best players." You remind me of the poker player who loses week after week and blames his bad luck. You remind me of the guy who picks Terry Bradshaw because he thinks GOAT is a baldness contest. |
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on Sept 13, 2020 21:54:49 GMT -8
C'mon RSM. You can't evaluate Brady objectively at his age. I will happily accept that argument if it is also applied to the last 5 years of his career in New England, when the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls. Part of the reason people believe Brady is GOAT QB is because he has 6 Super Bowl titles. Well, the last 3 titles were when he was 37, 39 & 41 years of age. If Brady is going to get credit for being the major reason why the Patriots won those Super Bowls (& thereby, qualifying him as GOAT QB), then his results at age 43 can be evaluated as well. If we are going to throw out whatever happens this year because of Brady's age, fine, then throw out the last 3 Super Bowls he won & the one they lost as being something he was responsible for. That puts his Super Bowl record at 3-2, good, but not GOAT material. MDDad ignores Brady's age when the Patriots accomplish something, giving all the accolades to Tommy, but then uses it as a shield when Brady falls on his face. Seems that once you're past the normal retirement age, and can perform at a reasonably competent level, that only serves to add to his legacy. Kinda like his Jerry Rice continued to be productive late in his career, even though he wasn't the same player. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Sept 14, 2020 18:33:38 GMT -8
As far as calling Tampa Bay a "mediocre" team, you may want to check out your definition of that word. That word does not mean what you think it means. Tampa was listed as at 12-1 to win the Super Bowl (6-1 to make it), the same odds given to Seattle & Dallas. Only 4 teams were rated above them, the Chiefs, Ravens, 49ers & Saints. So the people who make a living betting on the outcome of these games don't agree with your assessment of the 2020 Tampa Bay Bucs. In the last three seasons, Tampa Bay has been 5-11, 5-11 and 7-9. That is the very definition of mediocre. In fact, it's a compliment to call them that. If they are now 6-1 to get to the Super Bowl, it's because they picked up one key player. And remember, odds are not set on the expected outcome, they are set to get roughly equal numbers of ill-informed people to bet both sides of the line. You got caught making a stupid statement. Tampa Bay is not expected to be a mediocre team this year, at least not by anyone but you. They have the talent to be one of the better teams in the NFC and are expected to make the playoffs. Take the loss and move on, the excuses make you look like the straight Vile Pagan. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Sept 14, 2020 18:35:25 GMT -8
You remind me of the poker player who loses week after week and blames his bad luck. You remind me of the guy who picks Terry Bradshaw because he thinks GOAT is a baldness contest. Now you sound like George Costanza failing at a witty comeback. |
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RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
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Post by RSM789 on Sept 20, 2020 12:19:01 GMT -8
I have to catch a flight in a couple of hours, so we will only get 1/2 the Brady vs Belichik experiment for now.
Brady and the Bucs dominated the 1st half against Carolina, who closed to within one score in the waning minutes. Brady was servicable, throwing for over 200 yards, but with 1 interception and 1 fumble lost. Nonetheless, since the two games Tampa had against Carolina last year were close (1 win, 1 loss), I would have to credit Brady as improving Tampa this week.
That puts the score at RSM is still leading MDDad 1 to .5 with the Patriot/Seahawk game happening while I am in the air. I would say that a Patriot team with Tom Brady would be expected to win this game, so if they lose with Cam Newton, the .5 point goes to MDDad.
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