Tom Brady - Goat or overrated?

No, that is not my assumption.  Brady would be a winning QB on nearly any team he played for, short of the dumpster fire ones.  His career would probably be one like Ben Roestheberger or Russell Wilson if he had played for Pittsburgh or Seattle as examples .  Instead, he was fortunate to be part of the Patriots as Belichick was given the reins of the Patriots organization and he (Brady) was able to span two periods of time where the Patriots won 3 titles in less than 5 years.  If Brady were 5 years older or 5 years younger, he would have missed one of those 2 runs and had 3 titles instead of 6.

During the conversations, there were two suppositions.  The first was mine that Brady is not an elite athlete and the 2nd that Brady is the GOAT.  Brady is a professional athlete in that he can throw a football better than 99% of the human population, but I would not consider that one skill to be the full measure of an athlete.  Brady could never really run, can't jump, can't catch (based on the Super bowl against Philly), his elite skills are throwing a ball and reading defenses.  Now those are the skills needed to be a winning QB and I have never said he wasn't that.  But an Elite athlete is someone like Michael Jordan, someone whose elite skills are not limited to one or two specialized functions.  I might concede that Brady is an elite QB, if by elite we mean the top 50 in NFL history (out of the nearly 800 or so who have played that position)

As for Brady being the GOAT, it is so easy to imagine dozens of other players in his place doing what he did.  Whether you go to the past and grab Joe Montana, Dan Fouts or Jim Kelly or use more present day QB's like Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, they all would have had the success Brady had if they were Belichicks QB from 2001 to 2019.  Now, reality is that only Brady was and he took advantage of what he was given, but can you really argue against the supposition that if Drew Brees had been on the Patriots from that time period, people would be calling him the GOAT?

I know we can't reach a conclusion debating opinions, this is the digital version of a bar room conversation.  These opinions I give can't be proven, they are all supposition, but they are based in reason.  Your position doesn't gain more credibility because of the statistics you introduced because the conclusion you were trying to draw from them was not causal.  i respect your opinion & see how you reached it, I just have a different one and don't mind comparing them.

I think the most important skill a QB needs to possess is leadership. The absence of it sank guys like Jeff George.

Hard to argue with the results from Brady.

Like Brady, Manning was and still is to me one of the best line of scrimmage QB's ever. So kudos on your pick MDDad yet knowing you thought you would go Y.A. Tittle 

Me personally, I kinda always liked the blue collar grit guys, Favre, Stabler and Plunkett. 

Yet when this debate always rages...., I still come down to this thought, like in the NBA when there are 5 seconds on the clock in a 1 point game that you just took the lead in, however on the other team is with MJ or KOBE, statistics say in your favor, yet looking across the court at either one of those two, you, your team mates and fans all know you are f8cked. Same goes my analogy for football, and I have witnessed more than any other, games, playoffs, championships or Superbowls, it's Q4 and under a minute to go, you score take the lead, exuberance for a moment, right before reality hits and you look at the clock, one minute and Brady has the ball. Um were likely f12cked. In this regard Manning and Brady stand above, Brady however has done it much longer over his career and add the 6 rings, GOAT.

First, let me start by saying I'm not a Tom Brady fan.  I've had a soft spot in my heart for the Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts since the days of Johnny Unitas, and I'm a big fan of Peyton Manning.  I don't like Tom Brady because he's crushed my soul too many times.

With that said, RSM, I don't think you believe a word of what you wrote above and I highlighted in red.  If you do, you're virtually the only person on the planet that believes some of those journeymen could have produced the same results as Brady.  Some of them not only couldn't carry his jock, they couldn't find it with a map and a flashlight.  I think it's far more likely that you're either pulling all our legs, or you have an ax to grind with Brady.

Brady has won six Super Bowls.  16 guys on your list have not won any, and another six have won one.

Brady has been first-team all-pro three times.  20 of your 24 guys have never sniffed all-pro status.

Brady has played in 14 pro bowls.  11 of your guys have played in two or fewer.

Seven of your guys have played in fewer than nine seasons (Luck, Cousins, Bulger, Foles, Griffin, Wilson and Tannehill).  So how could they have produced the same results as Brady and led the Patriots to nine super bowls?

And when might Michael Vick have produced nine super bowls?  Between his suspensions and dog fights?


No, RSM, that's not how it works.  If you make an outlandish contention, such as some of those guys producing the same results as Tom Brady, or that the earth is really flat, the burden of proving you're right is on you.  It's not the responsibility of me or the rest of humanity to prove you're not.

And I'm sure you know there is no correlation between Wonderlic scores and NFL success as a quarterback.  The highest score ever achieved by a QB was by Greg McElroy from Alabama.  He scored a 48 out of 50.  His NFL career was one start and one mop-up game for the Jets before he washed out.

Aaron Rodgers scored a 35, which is quite good, and he's had great success.  But do you know who else scored a 35?  Matt Leinart.  And he was a dud.

Peyton Manning scored a 28, which is a middle-of-the-pack score, and he was a truly great quarterback.  But Ryan Leaf had a 27, and he was the shits.

Two of the lowest scores ever recorded were 16 (by Terry Bradshaw) and 15 (by Dan Marino).  Most people would agree those two hall of famers were pretty great quarterbacks.

"I don't like Tom Brady because he's crushed my soul too many times."

The defense rests its case....... 

I don't disagree here, although much of Brady's credibility to be a leader is his relationship with Belichick.  That is not meant to be a negative, any QB who has his coaches support immediately has a leg up in the leadership department with the team.