|
|
Post by ProfessorFate on Feb 1, 2020 22:13:17 GMT -8
QB - Peyton Manning (backup Tom Brady, although if I were RSM, I could have put Byron Leftwich, Chad Pennington, Marc Bulger, Ryan Tannehill or RG III in this spot and gotten the same results)
QB - Reno Hightower (if he wears his white shoes) (back-up Shane Falco, who has miles and miles of heart).
RB - Walter Payton and Jim Brown (backups Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith) WR - Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison (backups Randy Moss and Terrell Owens) TE - Tony Gonzalez (backup Antonio Gates) OT - Anthony Munoz and Forrest Gregg (backups Willie Roaf and Gary Zimmerman) OG - Bruce Matthews and Randall McDaniel (backups John Hannah and Alan Faneca) C - Mike Webster (backup Dermontti Dawson) DE - Reggie White and Bruce Smith (backups Michael Strahan and Jack Youngblood or Carl Eller) DT - Alan Page and Bob Lilly (backups Randy White and Warren Sapp) OLB - Lawrence Taylor and Derrick Brooks (backups Jack Ham and Junior Seau) ILB - Ray Lewis and Mike Singletary (backups Jack Lambert and Brian Urlacher) CB - Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders (backups Charles Woodson and Champ Bailey) S - Ronnie Lott and Ed Reed (backups Willie Wood and Larry Wilson) K - Kathy Ireland
 |
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Feb 2, 2020 8:51:16 GMT -8
LOL, if your are worthy of being called QB GOAT, it is only reserved for those whom played their careers with a sh*tty defense...... dude come on. And finally, seems you have waived on the fact that Brady is not considered an ELITE athlete, so what...., but honestly, you stand in that pocket for 20 years and do what he has done, not just won but survived....., TWENTY YEARS. Speaking go GOATS and not ELITE athletes...., what about this GOAT.....! Ever watch film of him run around the bases....!  |
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
|
Post by MDDad on Feb 2, 2020 9:42:50 GMT -8
Babe Ruth is a good example, but there are also examples at pro quarterback. Johnny Unitas was considered the GOAT until Joe Montana came along, but he was as bowlegged as a cowboy with rickets. If he ran a 40-yard dash right after breakfast, he'd be lucky to finish by lunch. And Sonny Jurgensen, another great quarterback in his time, could have floated all day in a swimming pool with that spare tire around his belly. There are some positions in team sports that require you to be a great athlete in order to be considered among the best, but quarterback hasn't historically been one of them.
|
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Feb 2, 2020 10:37:46 GMT -8
You guys are building strawmen around my comments and then arguing against that.
I never said Brady is not GOAT because he is not an Elite athlete. Brady is not an Elite athlete, that is a given. However, Brady is not GOAT for other reasons, most of all because other players of his skill level could have been inserted in his place and achieved the same results. If you are going to be GOAT, the single greatest player of all time, you have to (by definition) be able to or have done things that others couldn't. Think Walter Payton and his career with the crappy Bears, you put anyone other than maybe Barry Sanders in that position and no one ever hears of them.
Many consider Michael Jordan the greatest basketball player of all time, but that is short sighted because it ignores the influence of Phil Jackson as a coach. Without Phil as a coach, Jordan didn't win titles. Without Michael as a player, Jackson did win titles. That is why the GOAT of the NBA is Bill Russell, he won titles no matter who was the coach, including himself.
What Brady is:
An elite NFL QB (top 50 all time);
The NFL player with the most Super Bowl rings;
The father of a bastard child.
What Brady isn't;
The GOAT of the NFL;
An elite athlete;
irreplaceable.
|
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Feb 2, 2020 10:53:31 GMT -8
"However, Brady is not GOAT for other reasons, most of all because other players of his skill level could have been inserted in his place and achieved the same results. You simply can not prove that, this is about as much a STRAW MAN statement as any........ 
|
|
Bick
Administrator 
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Feb 2, 2020 12:33:13 GMT -8
You guys are building strawmen around my comments and then arguing against that. I never said Brady is not GOAT because he is not an Elite athlete. Brady is not an Elite athlete, that is a given. However, Brady is not GOAT for other reasons, most of all because other players of his skill level could have been inserted in his place and achieved the same results. If you are going to be GOAT, the single greatest player of all time, you have to (by definition) be able to or have done things that others couldn't. Think Walter Payton and his career with the crappy Bears, you put anyone other than maybe Barry Sanders in that position and no one ever hears of them. Many consider Michael Jordan the greatest basketball player of all time, but that is short sighted because it ignores the influence of Phil Jackson as a coach. Without Phil as a coach, Jordan didn't win titles. Without Michael as a player, Jackson did win titles. That is why the GOAT of the NBA is Bill Russell, he won titles no matter who was the coach, including himself. What Brady is:An elite NFL QB (top 50 all time); The NFL player with the most Super Bowl rings; The father of a bastard child. What Brady isn't;The GOAT of the NFL; An elite athlete; irreplaceable. If I understand your criteria correctly, a GOAT could theoretically have unrealized talent, or potential? You touch on a few different players, like Bill Russell, who throughout history should have been considered the GOAT at that time. You also make a valid point about contributing factors that help with success in a team sport. Even in baseball, a great hitter would not realize his upside without other players in the lineup protecting him, lest the pitchers pitch around him. But at the end of the day, I believe you have to realize the ultimate goal - championships - in order to be considered a GOAT in a team sport. |
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Feb 3, 2020 6:48:19 GMT -8
Some other pretty good candidates as well
|
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Feb 3, 2020 8:28:46 GMT -8
Notice whom is in forefront?
|
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Feb 3, 2020 12:29:37 GMT -8
"However, Brady is not GOAT for other reasons, most of all because other players of his skill level could have been inserted in his place and achieved the same results. You simply can not prove that, this is about as much a STRAW MAN statement as any........ You are 100% correct that I can't prove that. It is nothing more than an opinion, one that gets fans of John Edward Thomas's dad really ticked off. However, my opinion is not a strawman. A strawman is " a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent". I took the opinion (the case if you will) that Brady is GOAT and gave an argument against it, using my opinions and the history of sport. The ironic thing is that no one has ever defined what "Greatest" actually means. Is it most talented, winningest, most valuable, most irreplaceable, ones favorite? We all have our own biases as to what "Greatest" means. Heck, in most of the Super Bowls the Patriots were in, Brady wasn't even the greatest QB on the field... |
|
Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by Luca on Feb 3, 2020 14:02:26 GMT -8
Fair enough. If we're going to nominate players based on potential and how good they could have been in the right situation, I nominate Carson Palmer as the greatest quarterback of all time............................Luca
|
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
|
Post by MDDad on Feb 3, 2020 14:21:14 GMT -8
And I nominate Matt Leinart and Matt Barkley. Either them might have been the greatest of all time, but they just played for the wrong coaches.
|
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Feb 3, 2020 14:43:49 GMT -8
If’s and buts, circumstance etc. just doesn’t hold enough debate dynamic.... what can make a GOAT is what Mahomes did yesterday, he is a long way from being in the conversation but at 24 stealing a victory while in the jaws of defeat is a great start....
And I can meet you RSM on definitions such as great, most talented, MVP, etc... I can even go as far as saying it’s possible to GREATEST yet possibly not the BEST....
|
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Feb 3, 2020 16:37:30 GMT -8
And I nominate Matt Leinart and Matt Barkley. Either them might have been the greatest of all time, but they just played for the wrong coaches. You accidentally just proved my point. When Leinart was in college, he was surrounded by the best team money could buy and a head coach who excelled at the college game. He was considered a great player, was given a Heisman and went on to the NFL where he was just another QB. Taken out of the environment where he was surrounded by the best, he showed himself to be an average professional. When Barkley was in high school, same story as Leinart in college. Get him in college to a team that is good but fading fast and he looks above average. By the time he reaches the pros and has to compete against equally talented teams, he falls into the grouping of a 2nd string NFL QB. So Barkley in high school = Lienart in college = Brady in the NFL. All talented QB's who benefited immensely from the position they found themselves in, none of them GOATs |
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Feb 3, 2020 16:43:21 GMT -8
And I can meet you RSM on definitions such as great, most talented, MVP, etc... I can even go as far as saying it’s possible to GREATEST yet possibly not the BEST.... That's cool. I'm not against saying Brady's accomplishments may have been the best ever while at the same time declaring him not to be the GOAT. There are probably less than a handful of guys who made the most of a situation as Brady did, which is why he has the 6 Super bowl rings. There are so many variables in team sports compared to individual sports that declaring someone a GOAT is often subjective. |
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Feb 3, 2020 16:53:43 GMT -8
Fair enough. If we're going to nominate players based on potential and how good they could have been in the right situation, I nominate Carson Palmer as the greatest quarterback of all time............................Luca At one point in time, I might have considered Palmer as someone who could have done what Brady did had he been that position. Then I watched the 2015 playoffs and saw him as a player who couldn't handle the spotlight, his performances dwindling as the games got bigger. Larry Fitzgerald bailed him out in the first playoff game against the Packers, but the way he played against Carolina the next week could only be described as playing scared. That might not be fair, being this was near the end of his career and maybe he saw this as a last chance. Maybe the Carson Palmer of the Bengals, pre-injury, was a different man. All I know is how Palmer played in the 2015 season was substantially different than how he played in the 2015 playoffs. |
|
