davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 19, 2020 14:15:39 GMT -8
In all candor, I cannot say I faithfully execute all that this guy says, but I do believe him to accurately speak for most Christians, including me. i will only post a few snippets here, but please read the whole thing and, then, I will appreciate your comments: An Open Letter to the LGBTQ+ CommunityLast one: Now you: thoughts? |
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Post by vilepagan on Feb 20, 2020 7:24:59 GMT -8
ok, since you asked so nicely.
The following pretty much sums up why I have little time or respect for some Christian beliefs.
"I am keenly aware of the often debilitating strength of sin and the extreme power and deceptive nature of a very real devil. I and most other Christians believe that being duped by Satan into embracing a life of disobedience to Jesus is a sure fire way (pun intended) to plummet into unimaginable, never-ending, maddening torment the moment our extremely short life on Earth is over."
This is no different IMO than believing the moon is made of green cheese or that babies are delivered by storks. Such beliefs belong in the Middle Ages, not the 21st Century.
Christianity can be a wonderful way to teach morality to children. It's an...inaccurate...way to view the universe as an adult however.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 20, 2020 8:00:49 GMT -8
ok, since you asked so nicely. The following pretty much sums up why I have little time or respect for some Christian beliefs. "I am keenly aware of the often debilitating strength of sin and the extreme power and deceptive nature of a very real devil. I and most other Christians believe that being duped by Satan into embracing a life of disobedience to Jesus is a sure fire way (pun intended) to plummet into unimaginable, never-ending, maddening torment the moment our extremely short life on Earth is over." This is no different IMO than believing the moon is made of green cheese or that babies are delivered by storks. Such beliefs belong in the Middle Ages, not the 21st Century. Christianity can be a wonderful way to teach morality to children. It's an...inaccurate...way to view the universe as an adult however. I un-ignored you because I thought you might have an intelligent response on this topic. Thank you for not disappointing me. It will not surprise you (or anyone) I hear that a lot from people who do not believe: Usually this is their rationale for not believing (which might or might not be your reasoning here, I can’t tell). My opinion of your response is, it doesn’t hold water and NOT because I’m a believer: you suggest it is a wonderful way to teach morality to children... but “...beliefs that belong in the Middle Ages....” such as “the moon is made of green cheese or that babies are delivered by storks” are not a wonderful way to teach morality to children. i completely understand you don’t (and/or don’t want to) commit you’re life to Christ. As an aside, many friends and family who are engaged in sin believe a commitment to Christ will bring unwelcome change mandates. Whatever your reasoning, that article better describes my position towards homosexuality (and all sin) than my behavior towards you. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 20, 2020 9:54:37 GMT -8
Dave, biblical support or not, it's pretty much a non starter going with what I understand you to say, "I believe you're going to burn in hell for being gay", regardless of how nice you say it.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 20, 2020 10:07:02 GMT -8
Bick, I agree. I refuse to believe that all gays, plus all Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and members of all tribal religions will burn in hell, even if they lived exemplary lives. It it turns out Mother Teresa was a lesbian, would she be burning in hell despite all the selfless good she did?
I know we blast Pete Buttigieg for his buffet approach to Christianity, wherein he champions some tenets of the faith while ignoring others. But I have to admit I also sometimes eat at the same buffet.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 20, 2020 10:25:02 GMT -8
Dave, biblical support or not, it's pretty much a non starter going with what I understand you to say, "I believe you're going to burn in hell for being gay", regardless of how nice you say it. No, that’s not it at all. From the way some people react, ”being homosexual” is the only sin anyone has ever been guilty of and, unless they turn, they’ll burn. This open letter dispels that notion and criticizes those who believe that way. Biblically, we are ALL born into sin and absent God’s forgiveness through Christ, we are ALL going to Hell. It is not now nor has it ever been just “burn in hell for being gay” ... the point of the Bible (and of that article) is just “burn in hell for being a thief” and “burn in hell for being an adulterer” and “burn in hell for being a gossip” and “...hating” and “...lying”... and on and on. The entire Old Testament in the Bible is one huge treatment showing us we are given to evil (which it calls “sin” or “rebellion against God”) and without something significant happening, our destiny is, in fact, Hell. but, something DID happen. Jesus Christ came to earth as a man in every regard. Faced every temptation but did not sin, ever. In effect, showed us how to live IF we wanted to make it in on our own. Then, He who never sinned and who had every right to enter Heaven on His own merits did something significant: He took all our sin on Himself so that, through him (only), we can enter Heaven. yes, homosexuality is sin: Of that, there is no question. But so is sleeping with another man’s wife, so is lying and cheating, so are a lot of our”natural” inclinations. We humans are given to sin, and in God’s eyes, there is NO sin that is any bigger or worse than any other sin. If Pagan was a murderer, I would say he must be saved. If he steals, I would tell him he must be saved... if he cheats, if he gossips, if he trips little kids and laughs at them for falling down... we are all the same and we all have our “pet” sins: Those behaviors that sele rate us from God, but that we don’t want to give up. That, to me, is what the article says: “You sin, but so do we all and you need forgiveness JUST AS MUCH as I do.” God forces nothing on us. A thief gives his life to Christ and there is no immediate hammer on the head to stop stealing. He WILL, over time, come to want to stop as the Holy Spirit guides and influences him. Same with a homosexual. God won’t immediately send an intervention after him, but over time, he will come to understand his behavior hurts God, and want to change. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 20, 2020 10:34:12 GMT -8
Dave, biblical support or not, it's pretty much a non starter going with what I understand you to say, "I believe you're going to burn in hell for being gay", regardless of how nice you say it. No, that’s not it at all. From the way some people react, ”being homosexual” is the only sin anyone has ever been guilty of and, unless they turn, they’ll burn. This open letter dispels that notion and criticizes those who believe that way. Biblically, we are ALL born into sin and absent God’s forgiveness through Christ, we are ALL going to Hell. It is not now nor has it ever been just “burn in hell for being gay” ... the point of the Bible (and of that article) is just “burn in hell for being a thief” and “burn in hell for being an adulterer” and “burn in hell for being a gossip” and “...hating” and “...lying”... and on and on. The entire Old Testament in the Bible is one huge treatment showing us we are given to evil (which it calls “sin” or “rebellion against God”) and without something significant happening, our destiny is, in fact, Hell. but, something DID happen. Jesus Christ came to earth as a man in every regard. Faced every temptation but did not sin, ever. In effect, showed us how to live IF we wanted to make it in on our own. Then, He who never sinned and who had every right to enter Heaven on His own merits did something significant: He took all our sin on Himself so that, through him (only), we can enter Heaven. yes, homosexuality is sin: Of that, there is no question. But so is sleeping with another man’s wife, so is lying and cheating, so are a lot of our”natural” inclinations. We humans are given to sin, and in God’s eyes, there is NO sin that is any bigger or worse than any other sin. If Pagan was a murderer, I would say he must be saved. If he steals, I would tell him he must be saved... if he cheats, if he gossips, if he trips little kids and laughs at them for falling down... we are all the same and we all have our “pet” sins: Those behaviors that sele rate us from God, but that we don’t want to give up. That, to me, is what the article says: “You sin, but so do we all and you need forgiveness JUST AS MUCH as I do.” God forces nothing on us. A thief gives his life to Christ and there is no immediate hammer on the head to stop stealing. He WILL, over time, come to want to stop as the Holy Spirit guides and influences him. Same with a homosexual. God won’t immediately send an intervention after him, but over time, he will come to understand his behavior hurts God, and want to change. It my mind, many of the sins that doom us to hell seem trivial. Much of what we do here every day is gossip. Are we all sinning by doing so? If we die in our sleep without repenting, will we all burn in hell for kicking around unfounded rumors? If so, heaven must be a very lonely place. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 20, 2020 10:42:31 GMT -8
Dave, I'm not suggesting you aren't leaving open the possibility of redemption for the myriad of transgressions.
Those members of the groups MDDad listed, aren't thinking their association with is wrong, and wouldn't likely be seeking redemption. I don't believe they'll be burning because of it.
My point isn't to suggest you are wrong in your belief they would be burning, if that's what you truly believe. I'm saying it's unlikely to get a very positive response - this coming from a guy whose good friend told me I would be burning unless I did certain things. Needless to say, it didn't go over very well.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 20, 2020 12:46:29 GMT -8
Unless I misunderstand you, which is always possible, you are both focusing on the sin(s) instead on the way out that God provides.
MDDad, I cannot speak to individuals and their particular sin(s) beyond what it says in the Bible. I don’t see participation, here, as gossiping although I’m sure we could slip into that. But the POINT is, we ALL sin, which means, we all (myself included) typically choose a behavior (not an inclination, not a temptation, but an actual physical undertaking) that separates us from God. If you believe your participation here, whether or not you call it gossip or anything else, separates you from God, then that is something you have to take up with Him.
Bick, I am not appealing to your acceptance or affirmation. God’s law is not dependent on any of us buying into it. His law states, break the law, pay the price. The ONLY appeal provided in that process from creation through the end of time on earth is Jesus Christ. Accept His sacrifice and your pardon is certain. Refuse it OR do not volitionally decide to accept it, while you are alive, and you accept the consequences of breaking the law. No commutation, no pardon other than through Christ.
And, FTR, I hope you guys know, I’m not accusing or judging you, specifically. I’m using “you” as an editorial construct for “all y’all”...
Each of us is solely responsible for his or her behavior and the consequences thereof. God has made it more than abundantly clear NOT ONLY that He wants a relationship with us, but also what it is that we do to reject that relationship. When the end of this life comes for each of us, those who turned to Him, are welcomed in, those who spent their life in rejection of Him, are turned away.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 20, 2020 13:31:34 GMT -8
No worries about me thinking you're judging me. The God I believe in is a little more reasonable. Sure hope I'm right. 😱
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 20, 2020 15:21:03 GMT -8
No worries about me thinking you're judging me. The God I believe in is a little more reasonable. Sure hope I'm right. 😱 You’re all set if you can support that Biblically... |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 20, 2020 15:58:50 GMT -8
Fortunately for me, I have a different relationship with Him that isn't quite so structured.
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Post by ProfessorFate on Feb 20, 2020 16:22:26 GMT -8
No, that’s not it at all. ... if he cheats, if he gossips, if he trips little kids and laughs at them for falling down... we are all the same and we all have our “pet” sins: It my mind, many of the sins that doom us to hell seem trivial. Much of what we do here every day is gossip. Are we all sinning by doing so? If we die in our sleep without repenting, will we all burn in hell for kicking around unfounded rumors? If so, heaven must be a very lonely place. Reminds me of a joke I once heard. In a queue at the Pearly Gates, St. Peter was heard to tell the first couple, "No you can't come in. All you cared about your whole life was gold. silver, diamonds, and money, money, money. Heck, you even married a girl named Penny. Begone! Next!" The second couple steps up. St. Peter says, "No, you can't come in. All you cared about your whole life was drinking booze. Beer, wine rum, vodka, bourbon, tequila...didn't matter as long as you could get drunk. Heck, you even married a girl named Sherry! Begone! Next!" As the third couple steps up, Professor Fate, a little farther back in line, says to his wife, " Come on Fanny, let's get out of here. I just don't think he's gonna let us in." |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 20, 2020 16:28:15 GMT -8
When the end of this life comes for each of us, those who turned to Him, are welcomed in, those who spent their life in rejection of Him, are turned away.And therein lies my conundrum. Those that turn to Him and those who reject Him are only a small minority of the earth's citizens. There are billions and billions who have never heard of Jesus Christ, and wouldn't know the path to follow Him if it punched them in the face. Many of them lead lives as giving and nurturing as any Christian, yet you seem to believe they are all doomed to burn in hell. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 20, 2020 17:22:09 GMT -8
While I won't be confused for being Mormon, I tend to agree with the bold faced passages below.
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