Bick
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Post by Bick on Mar 11, 2019 11:11:15 GMT -8
We (me) need to consider what the current condition is, and what to do with the illegals currently here. As Covey would say, begin with the end in mind. So what's the desired result we're looking for?
Let's stipulate we're in agreement Border Security needs to be enhanced to some acceptable degree of efficiency. We can debate that on that thread.
I think we can agree the current condition / process is a mad cluster#@$! - primarily because it takes so long to process them, as well as the built-in follow up that's required as part of temporary visas.
Here's a simplistic end condition I'd be looking for:
1. Ensure all residents of the US are contributing to the operation of the country by paying all taxes imposed.
2. Utilize an immigration process that requires no additional contacts beyond the initial one, until / unless citizenship is desired.
Any disagreement with those 2 objectives? I've got some thoughts how to get there if not.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 3, 2021 7:09:10 GMT -8
Glad to see we're re-opening our overflow facilities instead of cages for children ripped away from their mothers arms.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 3, 2021 7:37:07 GMT -8
We (me) need to consider what the current condition is, and what to do with the illegals currently here. As Covey would say, begin with the end in mind. So what's the desired result we're looking for? Let's stipulate we're in agreement Border Security needs to be enhanced to some acceptable degree of efficiency. We can debate that on that thread. I think we can agree the current condition / process is a mad cluster#@$! - primarily because it takes so long to process them, as well as the built-in follow up that's required as part of temporary visas. Here's a simplistic end condition I'd be looking for: 1. Ensure all residents of the US are contributing to the operation of the country by paying all taxes imposed.2. Utilize an immigration process that requires no additional contacts beyond the initial one, until / unless citizenship is desired.Any disagreement with those 2 objectives? I've got some thoughts how to get there if not. Is “Ensure all residents are here legally” contained in either of your objectives? If so, I’m good. If not, I would add it. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 3, 2021 7:53:02 GMT -8
I'm less concerned with how anyone got here, and more concerned with whether or not they are pulling their weight.
Call it expediency, but to try to capture, process and deport those who have been here illegally for years, but paying their way the whole time, doesn't foot with my sense of morality.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 3, 2021 9:07:04 GMT -8
I'm less concerned with how anyone got here, and more concerned with whether or not they are pulling their weight. Call it expediency, but to try to capture, process and deport those who have been here illegally for years, but paying their way the whole time, doesn't foot with my sense of morality. I do not know your experience with “illegals” but mine tells me those who have “been here illegally but paying their way” are very rare. We absolutely must refine our immigration policies/laws so people who want to come here legally, can do so expediently. I also see deportation of illegals, and preventing illegals from entering as connected, but separate acts. We should do both, but neither must necessarily include the other. Especially today, the oft-chanted “they only do the jobs Americans don’t want to do” mantra is no longer valid as millions of Americans have lost their jobs and are willing to do most anything to provide for their families. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 3, 2021 9:11:14 GMT -8
Call it expediency, but to try to capture, process and deport those who have been here illegally for years, but paying their way the whole time, doesn't foot with my sense of morality. It's not so much an issue of morality as it is an issue of the rule of law and selectively ignoring those we don't like for political purposes. The notion of rewarding foreigners who knowingly and intentionally break our laws should bother you. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 3, 2021 9:14:35 GMT -8
...millions of Americans have lost their jobs and are willing to do most anything to provide for their families.I don't think that's true. There are millions of unemployed American citizens who would refuse to pick vegetables, mow lawns, mop floors, clean toilets, etc., especially given that the government will bail them out. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 3, 2021 10:50:35 GMT -8
...millions of Americans have lost their jobs and are willing to do most anything to provide for their families.I don't think that's true. There are millions of unemployed American citizens who would refuse to pick vegetables, mow lawns, mop floors, clean toilets, etc., especially given that the government will bail them out. I wonder if that is a California ... or high density population thing: Here, I see retirees going back to work out of necessity. People I knew from my former employer are turning up at Home Depot, Dairy Queen, and our local tree-trimmer. We have high school and college students working the bean and corn fields... |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 3, 2021 18:10:49 GMT -8
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 3, 2021 19:02:53 GMT -8
Why were they arrested? Did they forget to claim they were seeking asylum?
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 3, 2021 21:04:03 GMT -8
Why were they arrested? Did they forget to claim they were seeking asylum? I suppose they were arrested for being too anxious. Had they just waited a few weeks, Biden would have ordered them a limo. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 4, 2021 7:09:58 GMT -8
I'm less concerned with how anyone got here, and more concerned with whether or not they are pulling their weight. Call it expediency, but to try to capture, process and deport those who have been here illegally for years, but paying their way the whole time, doesn't foot with my sense of morality. I do not know your experience with “illegals” but mine tells me those who have “been here illegally but paying their way” are very rare. We absolutely must refine our immigration policies/laws so people who want to come here legally, can do so expediently. I also see deportation of illegals, and preventing illegals from entering as connected, but separate acts. We should do both, but neither must necessarily include the other. Especially today, the oft-chanted “they only do the jobs Americans don’t want to do” mantra is no longer valid as millions of Americans have lost their jobs and are willing to do most anything to provide for their families. I've got some first hand experience with both legal and illegal immigrants...mostly Hispanics, but others as well. My grandparents, as well as my mother in law, legally came to the US and ultimately became citizens. That side of my family would be embarrassed to ever take a government handout, and were grounded as farmers as MDD mentioned. ALL the kids, and many of the grandkids, including me as a 9 year old, spent more than a few days in the hot sun picking fruit. Spending most of my career in the restaurant biz, I've run across a number of both legal and illegal workers. Prior to the advent of the I9 form and the onus of employment verification shifting to employers, it was common to have illegals working in restaurants. FWIW, since the onus shifted to employer verification, I've complied with the rules and didn't knowingly hire illegals. My testimony is, as a rule, the illegals were far better workers than the ones here legally. Those from El Salvador stood out more than the other Latin American countries. If you recall the movie Salvador with James Woods, many of those who worked for us recounted similar first hand experiences of family members being kidnapped, tortured, raped and or murdered by BOTH of the warring sides. If any of us experienced a smidgen of what they endured, we'd have fled that country also,and risked whatever for the safety of OUR families. To my knowledge, none of them were on any kind of gov't assistance, and most wanted to be here legally. We hired an immigration atty to help with this, and attested to their character and fact they had worked for us and paid taxes for many years. At the end of the day, the "solution" was for them to move back to El Salvador, pay a fine, and wait a year down there. No home, no job, no basic security. So when I say it's a moral issue, I'm referring to the humanity of it all. If you were a judge, would you (or anyone else here) look them in the eyes and deport a family that had been here for 10+ years under those circumstances? I could not. I know I'm not nearly as religious as many of you are here, but believe I've got to answer for my life's choices when it's all over and I'm standing in front of HIM. I would have to look HIM in the eye and don't think he'd buy into notion I was just following the arbitrary rule of our gov't. I'm pretty sure he'd be clear that HIS rules trump those. Anyway, that's where I stand. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 4, 2021 8:27:03 GMT -8
I do not know your experience with “illegals” but mine tells me those who have “been here illegally but paying their way” are very rare. We absolutely must refine our immigration policies/laws so people who want to come here legally, can do so expediently. I also see deportation of illegals, and preventing illegals from entering as connected, but separate acts. We should do both, but neither must necessarily include the other. Especially today, the oft-chanted “they only do the jobs Americans don’t want to do” mantra is no longer valid as millions of Americans have lost their jobs and are willing to do most anything to provide for their families. ...My testimony is, as a rule, the illegals were far better workers than the ones here legally. ...To my knowledge, none of them were on any kind of gov't assistance, and most wanted to be here legally. ...If you were a judge, would you (or anyone else here) look them in the eyes and deport a family that had been here for 10+ years under those circumstances? I could not. I agree with your assessment, but extend it to all the Hispanics who worked for me (also in restaurants). They literally never asked for time off, and if they couldn’t come in, someone claiming that same name showed up to work. They excelled at every job I gave them. They cross-trained before cross-training was cool. If I needed someone, I gave the “Tio” the job requirements and had someone there the following day, WITH all the necessary paperwork. I seldom saw any of that from the white kids, although the older, usually single ladies did a good job, too, usually, but some of them gravitated towards being real Karen’s. I don’t know that any of them were on gov’t assistance, but neither did most (possibly any) of them pay taxes. Invariably, they claimed 5-9 dependents so state of federal withholding was minimal, if any. Many of them, to my knowledge, didn’t care if they were US citizens or not. But a lot of them asked me to help them speak better English, especially once they discovered I speak Spanish (I’ve got some funny stories about how they would discover that). if I was the judge, I expect I would take each case on its merits. Of course, someone truly escaping horrendous persecution (from anywhere), or who had put down roots here, and paid their taxes for the most part, would get due consideration. But I would also expect a proper investigation into their claims. |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Feb 22, 2021 22:16:23 GMT -8
This is just embarrassing ineptitude by Biden's nominee for Attorney General. And this is the guy Obama wanted on the Supreme Court in 2016? Holy smokes!
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Feb 22, 2021 22:31:22 GMT -8
Jesus, that was painful to watch.
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