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Post by vilepagan on Aug 1, 2020 3:38:02 GMT -8
Well, now that I think about it, technically, he has a religious belief. Exactly. Atheism is a belief system, no different than any other religion. Utter nonsense. Atheism is the antithesis of religion. Religion is the belief in a supreme being, Atheism is the belief that there is no supreme being, and here you are claiming they're the same. The silliest argument ever made. |
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Post by vilepagan on Aug 1, 2020 4:39:28 GMT -8
To your question, pagan, it doesn’t make much difference if a physician believes in demon DNA or evil spirits are “astral sex”, whatever the hell that is. As long as a physician has appropriate training and practices an acceptable level of medicine as dictated by medical and legal convention they can believe the earth is flat for all the law cares. The appropriate training and quality of care are what matters. I hope you’ll take this the right way, but you demonstrate more than a little hubris with your demeaning of religious beliefs. By definition, religious beliefs are metaphysical and there is nobody on this earth who knows with objective certainty whether there is a metaphysical world beyond our senses. Some believe there is a metaphysical world and Creator, but you do not………and neither of you can prove your point.. The existence of God cannot be objectively proven, but there is no scientific explanation for the origins of universe that is more convincing than theism. So to denigrate one in favor of the other indicates a bit of intellectual myopia. It’s a waste of cyberspace and serves a purpose only if you really enjoy arguing for argument’s sake. Well, I still think that someone who believed that people are getting sick because demons are raping them in their sleep should not have a medical license. I'm sure that in your opinion my opinions demonstrate "hubris" but it's interesting that you don't seem to feel the same way about people who claim to know the mind of God. To me that's the ultimate in hubris. As you so ably pointed out in another thread, your argument that I can't prove my "point" is irrelevant since i'm not the one making a claim, I'm just denying the validity of another claim that has no evidence in its support. Your claim that there is no argument for the creation of the universe that is more convincing than the one offered in the Bible is just your opinion, and one I don't share. I would submit that it's not shared by a vast majority of cosmologists either. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Aug 1, 2020 6:10:03 GMT -8
Geez, am I the only one who works for a living around here? Yes |
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Aug 1, 2020 11:44:16 GMT -8
Exactly. Atheism is a belief system...Utter nonsense. Atheism is the antithesis of religion. Religion is the belief in a supreme being, Atheism is the belief that there is no supreme being, and here you are claiming they're the same. I did not claim they are the same, I claimed they are both a belief system that relies on faith.
A Corvette is a car. A Prius is a car. They are not the same, but they are both cars. You agreed with me while trying to disagree with me. Well done. |
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Aug 1, 2020 14:21:00 GMT -8
Vilepagan has a point, but I think we are probably not using language with sufficient precision. Atheism is not a "religion" of any type. But neither is atheism the "antithesis" of religion, exactly.
Atheism is the antithesis of theism: one holds the existence of a Creator and the other denies that existence.
Religion is maybe best defined as the attempt to characterize the Creator and draw directives for human behavior from it.
It's more accurate say that atheism is similar to religion in that both require "faith", a belief in a creed that cannot be proven, but that may well be true. So my point would be that when there are two opposing perspectives on an issue - both equally conceivable but neither demonstrable - that it takes a bit of hubris to denigrate one side while defending the other.
(.......and I just realized after dictating this post that it pretty much just restates what RSM said. )
So, atheism isn't a religion per se, but like religion it requires faith. ..........................Luca
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Aug 1, 2020 15:12:46 GMT -8
Religion is maybe best defined as the attempt to characterize the Creator and draw directives for human behavior from it. That's certainly true of Judeo-Christian religions and Islam. But there are many other religions that don't have one omnipotent creator at their core. |
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Aug 1, 2020 16:36:17 GMT -8
Your claim that there is no argument for the creation of the universe that is more convincing than the one offered in the Bible is just your opinion, and one I don't share. I would submit that it's not shared by a vast majority of cosmologists either. Well, ultimately there are two possibilities: 1). There is some creative consciousness - however you want to phrase it - that brought about the existence of the universe, or 2). The universe is completely materialistic without any creative force behind it. If you choose the latter then you must choose between: 1). The universe simply "always existed" without an origin/cause, which doesn't explain much of anything and Is simply a manifestation of faith, or 2). The universe at some time sprang into existence on its own - from "nothing", so to speak - for which there is also little evidence and which seems inherently counterintuitive to most individuals. Cosmologists theorize all manner of things such as multiverses, multiple dimensions, quantum fluctuations in whatever, sequential big bangs followed by big crashes, etc. But they're just guessing. They don't have any proof for any of these things anymore than a theist does for a Creator. And I would submit that the vast majority of humanity does believe in a Creator, cosmologists notwithstanding. You're entitled to your conclusions and perhaps you are right, but you don't have any compelling evidence for them........................Luca ................................ |
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Aug 1, 2020 18:58:06 GMT -8
(.......and I just realized after dictating this post ...................Luca Wait, what? No wonder you don't post as much as many of us. I am assuming you are first creating a rough draft of each post, dictating that to your stenographer, who sends the shorthand over to your typist, who sends you a version for proofreading prior to posting. I am exhausted just writing about that process. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Aug 1, 2020 21:30:41 GMT -8
That does sound pretty laborious and exhausting. I usually just sit on the toilet and push for a minute, and whatever comes out I post. What's amazing is that it still usually has more intellectual depth than VP's stuff.
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Post by vilepagan on Aug 2, 2020 2:35:13 GMT -8
That does sound pretty laborious and exhausting. I usually just sit on the toilet and push for a minute, and whatever comes out I post. What's amazing is that it still usually has more intellectual depth than VP's stuff. Yes, this post is an excellent example of your intellectual prowess. You should be proud. I know I am. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Aug 2, 2020 5:59:49 GMT -8
That does sound pretty laborious and exhausting. I usually just sit on the toilet and push for a minute, and whatever comes out I post. What's amazing is that it still usually has more intellectual depth than VP's stuff. Yes, this post is an excellent example of your intellectual prowess. You should be proud. I know I am. Case in point. |
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thefrog
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Post by thefrog on Aug 2, 2020 7:31:38 GMT -8
That does sound pretty laborious and exhausting. I usually just sit on the toilet and push for a minute, and whatever comes out I post. What's amazing is that it still usually has more intellectual depth than VP's stuff. You should consider investing in a squatty potty. They’re pretty incredible. |
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Post by vilepagan on Aug 3, 2020 4:19:58 GMT -8
Your claim that there is no argument for the creation of the universe that is more convincing than the one offered in the Bible is just your opinion, and one I don't share. I would submit that it's not shared by a vast majority of cosmologists either. Well, ultimately there are two possibilities: 1). There is some creative consciousness - however you want to phrase it - that brought about the existence of the universe, or 2). The universe is completely materialistic without any creative force behind it. If you choose the latter then you must choose between: 1). The universe simply "always existed" without an origin/cause, which doesn't explain much of anything and Is simply a manifestation of faith, or 2). The universe at some time sprang into existence on its own - from "nothing", so to speak - for which there is also little evidence and which seems inherently counterintuitive to most individuals. Cosmologists theorize all manner of things such as multiverses, multiple dimensions, quantum fluctuations in whatever, sequential big bangs followed by big crashes, etc. But they're just guessing. They don't have any proof for any of these things anymore than a theist does for a Creator. And I would submit that the vast majority of humanity does believe in a Creator, cosmologists notwithstanding. You're entitled to your conclusions and perhaps you are right, but you don't have any compelling evidence for them........................Luca ................................ I "choose" to believe the theory that has the best evidence in it's support. There is exactly zero evidence to support the idea of a supernatural creator. Not one iota. There is evidence to support the idea of a big-bang...a lot of evidence as a matter of fact. "Cosmologists theorize all manner of things such as multiverses, multiple dimensions, quantum fluctuations in whatever, sequential big bangs followed by big crashes, etc. But they're just guessing," Well, they're not "guessing" nearly as much as the Theists, who claim to have all the answers....and yet you say it's the scientists who are going by "faith". I would say rather it's the scientists, whose ideas change with new discoveries and new theories who are better at finding out the truth rather than people who never change their minds no matter how much new information they are presented. |
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Aug 3, 2020 6:52:27 GMT -8
You are choosing to go with option 2.2: "The universe at some time sprang into existence on its own......" Yes, the big bang is well accepted and there is very good evidence for it. But it does not explain the origin of the universe since it does not explain were all that matter and energy came from. It merely traces it back to the earliest time we believe we can track it. Even cosmologists grant that. The big bang is not even in conflict with theism, I hope you realize.
So where is your evidence for the origin of all the energy/matter? Like a theist, you have no evidence for it. Yet you are entitled to choose that option based on your particular faith.
If you don’t like the word "guessing", we could substitute the word "theorizing". There is no proof for a multiverse, multiple dimensions, big bangs followed by big crashes, etc. These are theories based on available evidence but are not demonstrable. Possibly true, possibly not.
If you can point out a theist who claims to have all the answers, I would say the same to him. The theists I know don’t even pretend to understand our origins other than believing in a conscious creator. This is why they use the term "faith." If you thought you knew everything you wouldn’t need to use that term, right?.......................................Luca
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Aug 3, 2020 10:51:42 GMT -8
Luca, You started a cool thread about this origins of the universe that had my head spinning.
I hope I wasn't being lazy by just going with "yep... It was God".
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