Bick
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Religion
May 29, 2020 20:18:25 GMT -8
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Post by Bick on May 29, 2020 20:18:25 GMT -8
Quick question to those of us who consider ourselves "Christian", of any denomination, how would you define heresy? My view only goes as far as the fundamentals, deity of Christ, virgin birth, etc., but curious if anyone’s definition would go beyond that. Thanks for your time. I think heresy is belief in a being that would put it higher than God. I'm not sure an atheist would be a heretic simply because they don't believe in God. |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on May 29, 2020 21:39:32 GMT -8
Quick question to those of us who consider ourselves "Christian", of any denomination, how would you define heresy? My view only goes as far as the fundamentals, deity of Christ, virgin birth, etc., but curious if anyone’s definition would go beyond that. Thanks for your time. You're pretty much spot on. The Catholic definition of heresy is the act of denying a dogma of the faith, that is, a belief that is considered to be an essential teaching of Christianity (e.g., the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth, the Resurrection, etc.). Good video from that young Franciscan priest. I've seen some of his other videos and he does a nice job in terms of expounding the Catholic faith. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 30, 2020 6:54:25 GMT -8
Quick question to those of us who consider ourselves "Christian", of any denomination, how would you define heresy? My view only goes as far as the fundamentals, deity of Christ, virgin birth, etc., but curious if anyone’s definition would go beyond that. Thanks for your time. I’m maybe a little more general than you state here, but along the same lines: Galatians 1:8-9 states, Paul specifically mentions the Gospel to the church at Galatia (which reportedly did have an issue with false teachers coming into the congregation), so I would say “heresy” is any teaching that is contrary to the truths we find in the Gospels, which obviously includes the “fundamentals” you mention. thats my opinion. |
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Post by tubaornottuba on May 30, 2020 9:34:47 GMT -8
Tuba has gone silent. Like other spitballers--all hat and no cattle. "Tuba" had other endeavors more entertaining than this forum. What was the hurry anyway, Sparky? crd:-What constitutes our humanity? That is, what distinguishes human beings from the rest of the animal world? Tuba:There are many characteristics that distinguish homo sapiens from other animals. Here's our taxonomy: www.dummies.com/education/science/anatomy/taxonomy-homo-sapiens/. crd: - If there is only the material and the physically tangible, how do you explain your mind and your personal consciousness, which are beyond the realm of science to understand? Tuba:Ontology, eh? It is puzzling what constitutes self-awareness and being, isn't it? I don't know. Do you? I strongly suspect that humans aren't uniquely self-aware, though. I am certain, however, that just because the "mind" is a mystery it is not logical to assume the existence of the Christian god or any of the other several thousand supernatural-thingys made-up by religions. Crd:- Do you believe in conscience? Tuba:Yes. I'm able to distinguish between right and wrong. Can you? crd:- What happens when you die? Tuba:The same thing that happens to dead animals along the road: I'll rot (more or less quickly depending upon the wiles of an undertaker). crd:- How do you know that what is meaningful to you and the people in your life is not just a set of fairy tales that you tell yourself to create meaning? What is the scientific basis for those values? (e.g., joy, love, wonder, contentment) Tuba:There is a lot of serious science that attempts to quantify emotions and feelings, actually. Nonetheless, even if emotions and feelings are just personal "fairy-tales" their nature doesn't, therefore, affirm the existence of a deity. crd: Criminals, serial killers and murderous tyrants makes choices and engage in actions that give them meaning. On what basis can you condemn their choices? Tuba:Because such behaviors are not conducive to productive, cohesive and peaceful societies. Moreover, a human being who requires religious dogma to know that murder, rape, assaulting children and animals, lying, cheating and stealing are wrong, should be given a wide berth and urged to seek psychiatric counselling. |
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Post by reachmole on May 30, 2020 12:21:07 GMT -8
Tuba has gone silent. Like other spitballers--all hat and no cattle. Yes. I'm able to distinguish between right and wrong. Can you? Tuba - Question for you. You say you are able to distinguish between right and wrong. Based on what? What moral code do you use? |
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Post by tubaornottuba on May 31, 2020 17:38:04 GMT -8
Tuba:Yes. I'm able to distinguish between right and wrong. Can you? Tuba - Question for you. You say you are able to distinguish between right and wrong. Based on what? What moral code do you use? From copious standards of behavior informed by rules and laws inspired by millennia of secular legal codes and governments and social and cultural memes. As a result none of us requires self-righteous Bible-thumpers waving Bronze-Age goat-herder superstitions and taboos at us to know for a certainty that murdering; raping; sexually assaulting children, pets and corpses; stealing; perjuring oneself owning slaves; or selling girl children to old-geezers etc are wrong. |
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Post by reachmole on Jun 1, 2020 10:38:13 GMT -8
Tuba - Question for you. You say you are able to distinguish between right and wrong. Based on what? What moral code do you use? From copious standards of behavior informed by rules and laws inspired by millennia of secular legal codes and governments and social and cultural memes. As a result none of us requires self-righteous Bible-thumpers waving Bronze-Age goat-herder superstitions and taboos at us to know for a certainty that murdering; raping; sexually assaulting children, pets and corpses; stealing; perjuring oneself owning slaves; or selling girl children to old-geezers etc are wrong. Tuba, Again, lots of words, but not much substance. When I took all the “copious” word deflections out of your response, this is basically what you said: “From standards of behavior informed by rules and laws". This answer is so vague? What standards of behavior? There have been countless societies with very bad standards (Nazi Germany, for example). If there is no God, there are no absolute standards. And if no absolute standards, all standards are subjective. If all standards are subjective, then it’s only what is good for the moment, sometimes on an individual basis, and sometimes on a societal basis. For example, let’s say it’s 1941 and I am a member of the gestapo and you are a Jew, living in Paris. I invite you down to my office for a little chat. In my sick and depraved mind, you are subhuman. You are a parasite on German society and culture. You don’t deserve to live. It’s best, not just for me, but for all Germany, for you to die. Tell me why I should not kill you? |
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Post by tubaornottuba on Jun 3, 2020 13:24:00 GMT -8
From copious standards of behavior informed by rules and laws inspired by millennia of secular legal codes and governments and social and cultural memes. As a result none of us requires self-righteous Bible-thumpers waving Bronze-Age goat-herder superstitions and taboos at us to know for a certainty that murdering; raping; sexually assaulting children, pets and corpses; stealing; perjuring oneself owning slaves; or selling girl children to old-geezers etc are wrong. Again, lots of words, but not much substance. When I took all the “copious” word deflections out of your response, this is basically what you said: “From standards of behavior informed by rules and laws". Tuba:A distinction without a difference. But okay, have it your way. Same diff, though. reachThis answer is so vague? What standards of behavior? Tuba:Standards like: don't take what's not yours; don't murder; don't perjure yourself; don't assault children, pets, livestock or corpses; don't boff your neighbor's spouse, and many others. What standards of behavior did you think I meant? reach:There have been countless societies with very bad standards (Nazi Germany, for example). Tuba:Aberrant political regimes notwithstanding, there are copious standards of behavior (like the ones in the short list I wrote above) which are consistent in cultures, legal-codes and governments stretching back for millennia. reach: If there is no God, there are no absolute standards. Tuba:I reject your logic that the sine-qua-non of cultural and social standards conducive to a productive and peaceful societies must be the handiwork of an invisible (no less) sky-deity proffered by Judeo-Christian texts. Can you cite evidence of such a theory? reach:And if no absolute standards, all standards are subjective. If all standards are subjective, then it’s only what is good for the moment, sometimes on an individual basis, and sometimes on a societal basis. Tuba:But of course, for millennia standards have been more or less consistent from culture to culture whose tales of gods, on the other hand, are wildly inconsistent. Still and all, not a logical reason to assume the invisible sky-deity of Christian -- or otherwise -- myths was their author. reach:For example, let’s say it’s 1941 and I am a member of the gestapo and you are a Jew, living in Paris. I invite you down to my office for a little chat. In my sick and depraved mind, you are subhuman. You are a parasite on German society and culture. You don’t deserve to live. It’s best, not just for me, but for all Germany, for you to die. Tell me why I should not kill you? Tuba:Your grim anecdote doesn't, therefore, affirm that the standards in contemporaneous mid-20th-century cultures and societies that condemned -- indeed, warred against -- Nazi atrocities, could not have existed if the Christian sky-deity hadn't made them up. |
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
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Post by davidsf on Jun 4, 2020 7:16:39 GMT -8
Can’t figure out how to respond with a quote in this forum...
AND
cannot answer the question.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Jun 4, 2020 7:42:41 GMT -8
Yes, there are. And throughout those millennia, almost all societies' standards of behavior were based on a belief in a deity or deities that defined right and wrong. It's not so much whether or not God exists that is important, it is the BELIEF that He does that shapes human behavior for the better.
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Post by tubaornottuba on Jun 4, 2020 8:16:51 GMT -8
Yes, there are. And throughout those millennia, almost all societies' standards of behavior were based on a belief in a deity or deities that defined right and wrong. It's not so much whether or not God exists that is important, it is the BELIEF that He does that shapes human behavior for the better. Point taken. On the other hand, despite how wildly varied ancient superstitious religious beliefs were (and are!) from culture to culture, era to era, standards of behavior were not wildly different. Heck, that's true in the 21st -century too. That strongly suggests to me that mere belief in one supernatural being or another, was/is irrelevant to how cultures establish(ed) rules for maintaining productive and peaceful societies. The culture that believed in the noisy and cranky Olympians had pretty much the same societal rules as the Aztecs, as the Incas, as the Cherokee, as the Norse, as the British, as the modern American republic. |
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Post by vilepagan on Jun 4, 2020 9:00:28 GMT -8
Can’t figure out how to respond with a quote in this forum... AND cannot answer the question. Just because you didn't understand his answer doesn't mean he didn't answer. Like my quote?  |
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Post by vilepagan on Jun 4, 2020 9:07:12 GMT -8
From copious standards of behavior informed by rules and laws inspired by millennia of secular legal codes and governments and social and cultural memes. As a result none of us requires self-righteous Bible-thumpers waving Bronze-Age goat-herder superstitions and taboos at us to know for a certainty that murdering; raping; sexually assaulting children, pets and corpses; stealing; perjuring oneself owning slaves; or selling girl children to old-geezers etc are wrong. If there is no God, there are no absolute standards. There are no absolute standards. This of course doesn't mean there is no God, but there is no absolute moral law that everyone follows and always has. Morality has changed over time and location throughout history, and the vast majority of people on this planet have lived and died without any knowledge of Judeo-Christian teachings, so it seems unlikely that these teachings are the basis for man's sense of morality. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jun 4, 2020 11:37:19 GMT -8
Wasn’t it vile-boy who punished anyone who used three posts when one was sufficient?
Hypocrite much, boy?
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Post by reachmole on Jun 5, 2020 10:25:40 GMT -8
I think I might not be making myself clear. We both agree the above actions are wrong. I am asking by what authority. Telling me “standards of behavior” is an authority. I believe they are wrong because I believe in a set of absolutes, given by God. Contrary to what you say, many cultures do NOT agree on the same set of absolutes. Why don’t you try your luck in parts of the Middle East where Surya Law is the standard? This set of “standards of behavior” allows honor killings where fathers can murder their daughters! Homosexuals are thrown off building! Need I continue? Standards of behavior is not an answer. Give me an authority! First, you really like the work copious. Second, we are not talking about aberrant political regimes. See above. You can reject it all you want, it’s still the truth. Back to the same argument, by what authority do you claim absolutes? You really didn’t address my claim. Just your usual blather of “Tales of gods, blah blah blah, not logical, blah blah blah, invisible sky-deity, blah blah blah. Demeaning terms does not win arguments. Is it ground hog day? Or iis there a vinyl record playing with a scratch in it? I don’t know if you got dropped a lot as a child or what, but using terms like “Christian sky-deity” “invisible sky-deity of Christian”, and the like, over and over and over, does not make you sound smarter. With that said, you did not answer my question in the scenario. “Tell me why I should not kill you?” How is it wrong? I have already demonstrated that What standards of behavior is not an authority, nor consistant through human history. |
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