Bick
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Jul 19, 2019 6:30:32 GMT -8
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Post by Bick on Jul 19, 2019 6:30:32 GMT -8
These grandiose temples reminds me of calves made of gold stuff. It just doesn't foot with my belief in what Jesus was all about. Neither does the covering up of the pedophile priests.
The great charity work the church does, is something that exemplifies Him.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Jul 19, 2019 9:42:22 GMT -8
These grandiose temples reminds me of calves made of gold stuff. It just doesn't foot with my belief in what Jesus was all about. Neither does the covering up of the pedophile priests. The great charity work the church does, is something that exemplifies Him. If we're going to object to grandiose temples built to honor God, then we're a little late to the party. For Christianity we'd have to go back to the 4th century when Constantine helped fund the building of the first churches in Rome. Heck, we'd have to condemn Solomon and the Jews for building the Temple in Jerusalem, or go back even further and lambaste God himself for giving Moses the elaborate instructions for erecting the Tabernacle during the Exodus from Egypt. The problem with the Golden Calf was not the gold, but that it was an expression of idolatry and false worship of some thing other than Yahweh--the One True God. But even the worship of Christ himself can take false detours. No question. I do get your point, though, Bick. Well taken. There is always a necessary tension (or balance) between the core spiritual realities and the fact that we dwell here on Earth and need and want the material realities as well. All institutions (government, sports, art, entertainment, commerce--not just religion) have to be mindful of not forgetting their roots and devolving into an enterprise that perpetuates itself for its own sake. p.s. At least we can have some mildly intelligent discussion of religious topics on this board. At TOB any mention of Christianity was usually dismissed as bigoted and irrational superstition. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Jul 31, 2019 5:55:08 GMT -8
Ahhhh, Credo, good to see the Church finally giving in to global warming. 😳
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Jul 31, 2019 6:08:57 GMT -8
Well maybe much has not changed since 1987.... "Sign O The Times".  |
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Aug 12, 2019 12:10:19 GMT -8
I‘ve considered that myself many times. My understanding - at least this is what I am told - is that the purchase of the Crystal Cathedral was funded by a number of wealthy donors who gave money specifically for that purpose, knowing that the property was available and what the Church wanted it for. It’s therefore money that the Church would otherwise not have had and so was not diverted from other more worthy causes. Tim Busch is the guy who negotiated the sale of the Schuller property and is one of the major donors. He was also JSerra’s primary founder who – I am told _ individually took on $70 million in debt to fund the high school. There’s a lot of money out there.
This is similar to the in-progress repairs to the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. There were some in France upset at the money that’s going to be spent repairing the Cathedral - at least $50 million, the last I heard – when in fact the resources are coming from wealthy donors who otherwise would not have given it to the Church……………………………………..Luca
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Aug 12, 2019 14:22:13 GMT -8
This is exactly right. Big money donations are usually for a specific purpose. Money to purchase of renovate the new Christ Cathedral was not siphoned off from soup kitchens.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Aug 12, 2019 18:38:45 GMT -8
Understood, but how many more soup kitchens could there have been if the renovation money was used for that.
Folks can say that without the renovation, the donation never would have existed. I look at it from the viewpoint that person X was always willing to donate that large amount, but those at the church just didn't hit the hot button to get that donation until the renovation came into being.
Think of Schindlers list, how many more could have been saved...
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Bick
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Aug 12, 2019 18:44:23 GMT -8
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Post by Bick on Aug 12, 2019 18:44:23 GMT -8
That was a crushing scene at the end of that movie. I have similar thoughts. Just seems the priorities are off, but I admit I really don't know all that goes into these decisions.
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Aug 12, 2019 19:39:58 GMT -8
Understood, but how many more soup kitchens could there have been if the renovation money was used for that. You can’t really do that. If somebody comes to you and donates money for an agreed-upon purpose you can’t do a bait and switch and use it for something else, at least not ethically.............Luca |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Aug 13, 2019 5:42:53 GMT -8
In addition to what Luca said, those who are not involved in donating their money to the church shouldn’t sit on the outside criticizing the church for how they use the money that is donated by those who do.
The aspect this discussion is missing is, none of us have enough insight to stipulate how the Holy Spirit is directing a given church.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Aug 13, 2019 6:44:18 GMT -8
In addition to what Luca said, those who are not involved in donating their money to the church shouldn’t sit on the outside criticizing the church for how they use the money that is donated by those who do. The aspect this discussion is missing is, none of us have enough insight to stipulate how the Holy Spirit is directing a given church. I believe we not only have the right, but the obligation to challenge what we see in the church that does not seem to be consistent with our perceived intent of Christ. Apologies for really getting outside my lane here, but wouldn't Matthew 23:27 apply in this case? I'm not passionate about this argument. But when I think of what I understood Jesus' view of grandiose temples, my belief is he was all about modesty, and the $$ being spent on these buildings in His name, just wouldn't fly...regardless of who was spending it. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Aug 13, 2019 7:08:34 GMT -8
In addition to what Luca said, those who are not involved in donating their money to the church shouldn’t sit on the outside criticizing the church for how they use the money that is donated by those who do. The aspect this discussion is missing is, none of us have enough insight to stipulate how the Holy Spirit is directing a given church. I believe we not only have the right, but the obligation to challenge what we see in the church that does not seem to be consistent with our perceived intent of Christ. Apologies for really getting outside my lane here, but wouldn't Matthew 23:27 apply in this case? I'm not passionate about this argument. But when I think of what I understood Jesus' view of grandiose temples, my belief is he was all about modesty, and the $$ being spent on these buildings in His name, just wouldn't fly...regardless of who was spending it. Jesus was not speaking about actual physical buildings when he called the Pharisees “hypocrites.” He was accusing them of them appearing so pious and proud of their adherence to the Law but entirely missing the point God lays out in Scripture. no, i don’t believe anyone not involved in the church... any church ... has a right or responsibility to criticize what that church does or how it does it. The church should be guided in all things by the Holy Spirit. I say “should be” because we can all cite examples of those who (we believe) were not or are not. But even in those cases (e.g. Jesse Duplantis, an evangelist who claims the Holy Spirit told him he needs a G7 Jet to do ministry), MY business is to decide whether or not I should participate in that ministry. Whether or not the Holy Spirit really IS directing and being adhere to is between that church or ministry and God... i.e. “none of my business.” i, as just a human being, am always so tempted to think I have been given the ministry of judging others. Unfortunately, there is no such ministry. If the church or any ministry is doing as the Holy Spirit directs, great. If they are not, they will answer to God (who, by the way, doesn’t need my input to help Him decide). O.K., now, all that said, I do also earnestly believe a ministry SHOULD be sensitive to the perspective of those whom it desires to influence. For example, as an evangelist, Jesse Duplantis wants to bring people to Jesus Christ. While it is not up to me how he does that, I would think he would not want his predilection for a G7 jet to get in the way of his appeal to anyone... |
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Aug 13, 2019 13:16:45 GMT -8
Things have changed a bit in the last two millennia, Bick. Jesus Christ only had to worry about 12 guys. There are now over 400,000 Catholic priests and over 700,000 nuns today. One third of the world's population is Christian and half of them are Catholics.
The amount of money spent on missions and proselytizing and medical care and teaching, etc., is staggering. It is impossible to believe that some of the money spent is not misplaced or even wasted, but the bureaucratic costs alone of running the church must be immense. I have no idea what the numbers are but to the amount spent on basic infrastructure - other than schools and hospitals - is likely a small percent.
You have to supply places of worship and you have to support over a million priests and nuns, to say nothing of the lay people who are sent all over the world on missions. The overall purpose is very much in keeping with Christianity and to point out a substantial expenditure here and there for regional cathedrals that will possibly serve for centuries is to focus on saplings and not recognize the forest……………………………………………Luca
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Aug 13, 2019 13:57:36 GMT -8
Things have changed a bit in the last two millennia, Bick. Jesus Christ only had to worry about 12 guys. There are now over 400,000 Catholic priests and over 700,000 nuns today. One third of the world's population is Christian and half of them are Catholics. The amount of money spent on missions and proselytizing and medical care and teaching, etc., is staggering. It is impossible to believe that some of the money spent is not misplaced or even wasted, but the bureaucratic costs alone of running the church must be immense. I have no idea what the numbers are but to the amount spent on basic infrastructure - other than schools and hospitals - is likely a small percent. You have to supply places of worship and you have to support over a million priests and nuns, to say nothing of the lay people who are sent all over the world on missions. The overall purpose is very much in keeping with Christianity and to point out a substantial expenditure here and there for regional cathedrals that will possibly serve for centuries is to focus on saplings and not recognize the forest……………………………………………Luca ...and that’s just Catholics... add in the Evangelicals and other protestants and while there is still a shortage of money to meet all the needs, it DOES go to things other than buildings. |
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