duke
Statesman
Posts: 681
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Post by duke on May 28, 2021 16:13:52 GMT -8
Have you forgotten Wabash?
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billb
Senior Eminence Grise
Posts: 3,082
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Post by billb on May 28, 2021 23:41:03 GMT -8
No one can deny minority neighborhoods are over-policed. Where is that buzzer button.
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Post by vilepagan on May 29, 2021 3:14:22 GMT -8
...how many truly have a deep understanding of the topics we're discussing? I can think of only one peson who has a deep understanding of every topic ever discussed, but most of us have him on ignore. I can think of one person who behaves like a child and posts irrelevant and insulting comments like this in almost every thread. I don't know why an adult would behave this way but you do. If you have me on ignore, then ignore me...I guess you just don't have the self-control.
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MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
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Post by MDDad on May 29, 2021 6:33:01 GMT -8
VP, on Feb. 12 of this year, someone I greatly respect on this forum asked me to try the civil approach in my discussions with you. For over two months I did, but you did not reciprocate in kind. With all due respect, in the discussion about Robert E. Lee owning slaves you demonstrated beyond all doubt (at least for me) that you can be utterly ignorant on a subject but feel compelled to do a quick google search or wikipedia read and pretend to be an expert. Amusingly, one author you used in defense of your position is widely considered among real historians on the subject to be the Oliver Stone of the Civil War era. He also posited that Lee was so pychotically obsessed with George Washington that he patterned everything he did in life trying to emulate his ancestor by marriage. When you are exposed for being wrong or misinformed, you evade, move the goalposts, or double down on your position.
I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that I'm done with you. Whether or not you really believe what you post or are just taking your positions to be irritating or argumentative is utterly irrelevant to me, and it will take a lot to make me respond to you again. I truly hope you have a good life, but you can kiss my ass.
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
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Post by davidsf on May 29, 2021 7:07:12 GMT -8
VP, on Feb. 12 of this year, someone I greatly respect on this forum asked me to try the civil approach in my discussions with you. For over two months I did, but you did not reciprocate in kind. With all due respect, in the discussion about Robert E. Lee owning slaves you demonstrated beyond all doubt (at least for me) that you can be utterly ignorant on a subject but feel compelled to do a quick google search or wikipedia read and pretend to be an expert. Amusingly, one author you used in defense of your position is widely considered among real historians on the subject to be the Oliver Stone of the Civil War era. He also posited that Lee was so pychotically obsessed with George Washington that he patterned everything he did in life trying to emulate his ancestor by marriage. When you are exposed for being wrong or misinformed, you evade, move the goalposts, or double down on your position. I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that I'm done with you. Whether or not you really believe what you post or are just taking your positions to be irritating or argumentative is utterly irrelevant to me, and it will take a lot to make me respond to you again. I truly hope you have a good life, but you can kiss my ass. He did something similar for me in the voter fraud thread: Cited the Heritage website that said the opposite of his argument and, when called on it, used the blistering rejoinder, "no it's not." 🙄
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SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
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Post by SK80 on May 29, 2021 8:19:53 GMT -8
Have you forgotten.... Wabash?
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Post by vilepagan on May 30, 2021 2:32:25 GMT -8
VP, on Feb. 12 of this year, someone I greatly respect on this forum asked me to try the civil approach in my discussions with you. Good advice....are you going to give it a try? You certainly haven't been civil to me so far. Not that I care. Like I said, if you're going to ignore me please do so. Don't be like Dave.
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
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Post by davidsf on May 30, 2021 5:20:52 GMT -8
VP, on Feb. 12 of this year, someone I greatly respect on this forum asked me to try the civil approach in my discussions with you. Good advice....are you going to give it a try? You certainly haven't been civil to me so far. Not that I care. Like I said, if you're going to ignore me please do so. Don't be like Dave. Have I not been civil since taking you off ignore? Are you sure you aren't complaining about me because you don't like it when I shoot down your foolish rejoinders? Just say the word and I'll ... do anything I want to do. đź‘Ś
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Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
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Post by Bick on May 30, 2021 11:14:50 GMT -8
Thanks for the intermission fellas, but I'd like to place a moratorium on anything beyond the subject matter of this thread going forward.
Some interesting thoughts about what CRT is intended to convey, so I'll go with an academic definition per Education Week
These are the basic tenets of CRT
Basic Tenets and Dominant Themes in Critical Race Theory Scholars across disciplines have identified several dominant and unifying themes that describe the basic tenets of CRT. Based on the core CRT literature, 10 basic tenets/dominant themes can be articulated that describe CRT’s conceptual foundation.
1. Race is a social construct, not a biological phenomenon. 2. Racism is endemic to American life and should not be regarded as an aberration. 3. Racism benefits those who are privileged and serves the interests of the powerful to maintain the status quo with respect to racial stratification. 4. CRT represents a challenge to the dominant social ideology of color-blindness and meritocracy. 5. Racial identity and racial identification are influenced by the racial stratification that permeates American society. 6. Assimilation and racial integration are not always in the best interests of the subordinated group. 7. CRT considers the significance of within-group heterogeneity and the existence of simultaneous, multiple, intersecting identities. 8. CRT argues for the centrality, legitimacy, and appropriateness of the lived experience of racial/ethnic minorities in any analysis of racial stratification. 9. CRT insists on a contextual analysis by placing race and racism in a cultural and historical context, as well as a contemporary sociopolitical context. 10. Informing social justice efforts and the elimination of racial oppression are the ultimate goals of critical race theory.
Unless I'm missing any key items, I think we can use these points to start the debate.
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davidsf
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 5,252
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Post by davidsf on May 30, 2021 13:09:18 GMT -8
These are the basic tenets of CRTBasic Tenets and Dominant Themes in Critical Race Theory Scholars across disciplines have identified several dominant and unifying themes that describe the basic tenets of CRT. Based on the core CRT literature, 10 basic tenets/dominant themes can be articulated that describe CRT’s conceptual foundation. 1. Race is a social construct, not a biological phenomenon. 2. Racism is endemic to American life and should not be regarded as an aberration. 3. Racism benefits those who are privileged and serves the interests of the powerful to maintain the status quo with respect to racial stratification. 4. CRT represents a challenge to the dominant social ideology of color-blindness and meritocracy. 5. Racial identity and racial identification are influenced by the racial stratification that permeates American society. 6. Assimilation and racial integration are not always in the best interests of the subordinated group. 7. CRT considers the significance of within-group heterogeneity and the existence of simultaneous, multiple, intersecting identities. 8. CRT argues for the centrality, legitimacy, and appropriateness of the lived experience of racial/ethnic minorities in any analysis of racial stratification. 9. CRT insists on a contextual analysis by placing race and racism in a cultural and historical context, as well as a contemporary sociopolitical context. 10. Informing social justice efforts and the elimination of racial oppression are the ultimate goals of critical race theory. Unless I'm missing any key items, I think we can use these points to start the debate. While there will be a temptation to isolate and denigrate those tenets some find onerous, can we agree there are some on which we agree? For example, no one can argue with #1, "Race is a social construct, not a biological phenomenon." I do not believe anyone here will offer that racism is biology-based. Also look at #5, "Racial identity and racial identification are influenced by the racial stratification that permeates American society." While some might object to the terminology used, it is an observable fact that racial identity does find its locus in the economic and social (e.g. "racial") strata of our society. and I know some will object to the phrase "social justice," but put that aside for the moment: Who cannot support #10, "Informing social justice efforts and the elimination of racial oppression are the ultimate goals of critical race theory?"
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 30, 2021 13:27:24 GMT -8
1. Race is a social construct, not a biological phenomenon. For example, no one can argue with #1, " Race is a social construct, not a biological phenomenon." I do not believe anyone here will offer that racism is biology-based. I can and will argue with #1, because I couldn't disagree more. It seems you are using "race" and "racism" interchangeably, when they are vastly different concepts. Race is absolutely a biological phenomenon. Ever since the first humans spread across the world, they have developed physical and socio-cultural differences that are the absolute basis of race. If the world were entirely devoid of racism, there would still be races. Whether or not racism is a social construct depends almost entirely on one's definition of the term, so that may need to be agreed upon before a discussion can proceed.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 30, 2021 14:24:58 GMT -8
For example, no one can argue with #1, " Race is a social construct, not a biological phenomenon." I do not believe anyone here will offer that racism is biology-based. I can and will argue with #1, because I couldn't disagree more. It seems you are using "race" and "racism" interchangeably, when they are vastly different concepts. Race is absolutely a biological phenomenon. Ever since the first humans spread across the world, they have developed physical and socio-cultural differences that are the absolute basis of race. If the world were entirely devoid of racism, there would still be races. Whether or not racism is a social construct depends almost entirely on one's definition of the term, so that may need to be agreed upon before a discussion can proceed. They are, in fact, used interchangeably in that context. O.K., you don't like the terminology? I will change it so as to enable your understanding: Rac ism is a social construct, not a biological phenomenon. THAT is how I read and understand it.
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Bick
Administrator
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Post by Bick on May 30, 2021 15:07:21 GMT -8
I think the rub with the biological argument comes with the wide prevalence of mixed races - and that has nothing to do with racism. By example, what biological race would a person whose paternal grandparents are Asian, maternal grandparents American Indian, white mother, and black father belong to?
This from another site defining CRT. I can't vouch for the science behind it, but my limited experience with a couple of the DNA sites has me nodding my head in agreement considering I have a pretty varied mixed racial structure.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 30, 2021 15:16:16 GMT -8
By example, what biological race would a person whose paternal grandparents are Asian, maternal grandparents American Indian, white mother, and black father belong to? Please explain how an Asian couple produced a black son in this example. Or for that matter, how a native American couple produced a white daughter. Was there some hanky-panky going on?
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Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
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Post by Bick on May 30, 2021 15:56:02 GMT -8
Was thinking Tiger Woods & the gal from Dances with Wolves (yeah, I know she was "adopted"), but yep...bad examples.
OK...Asian mom, black dad = what biological race? American Indian mom, Austrian dad = what race?
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