Bick
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Post by Bick on May 8, 2019 8:04:59 GMT -8
From my perspective, no “re-reading” will be necessary. The Bible is silent on the topic and I can only suppose it is silent because it doesn’t involve us OR bring us closer to God. Think it's possible that those who first interpreted the Bible had no contextual frame of reference of the possibility of life beyond our planet...or even that we were living on a planet at all? Perhaps God actually covered this point, but those who compiled it just missed it?
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Luca
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Post by Luca on May 8, 2019 12:01:47 GMT -8
I don’t think we're going to get any particular insight on the issue by comparing and interpreting Bible passages. The Bible is pretty silent on extraterrestrial life, as I recall. If we relied on it for scientific conclusions we'd still have an earth-centric solar system.
If in fact the cosmos was created by God, He did not leave many particulars regarding it with the old testament authors and we have to try to figure out these issues on our own.
So we have to compare the contrasting concepts of a universe (and possibly a multiverse) with an enormous number of galaxies with an almost infinite number of solar systems and planets to the virtually incomprehensible chances of life originating spontaneously. Actually, it sounds analogous to the 15th Century biblical debate regarding how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.
Who’s up for a bet?.....................................Luca
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 8, 2019 12:14:09 GMT -8
From my perspective, no “re-reading” will be necessary. The Bible is silent on the topic and I can only suppose it is silent because it doesn’t involve us OR bring us closer to God. Think it's possible that those who first interpreted the Bible had no contextual frame of reference of the possibility of life beyond our planet...or even that we were living on a planet at all? Perhaps God actually covered this point, but those who compiled it just missed it? That is not how I understand the Bible came to be... but there is room for different perspectives on that.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on May 8, 2019 17:53:30 GMT -8
...how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Who’s up for a bet?.....................................Luca 25, at least until the rosters expand in September, then the answer would be 40.
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Luca
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Post by Luca on May 8, 2019 19:28:01 GMT -8
Why do I get the feeling like I’m trying to discuss classical music with a bunch of Metallica enthusiasts?.......................Luca
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Credo
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Post by Credo on May 8, 2019 23:14:46 GMT -8
One of the things I find interesting about the possibility of intelligent extraterrestrial life is the common charge that it is "arrogant" to think that we humans are the only ones in the universe. But how does this follow? In the face of the total and complete lack of evidence for such E.T. life, might such a stance be more an act of modesty than one of arrogance? Just a thought.
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Credo
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Post by Credo on May 8, 2019 23:56:55 GMT -8
If one affirms that God directly created man and woman in His image (as Christian belief has always held), it doesn't seem likely that He would do the same somewhere else... Out of curiousity, why? I know having a child isn't the same as God creating man & woman, but when most folks have a child, they later have more. Having additional children or repeating the process of creating mankind in different galaxies doesn't lessen the value of the first one (or of any of them). I think God is smart, so it would make sense he would hedge his bet and fire off a few Adams & Eves. From his standpoint, it would be interesting to see the differences between them as time advanced. Who knows, maybe we were the only one that lasted this long... Interesting points that are made. I guess I would respond by saying that Sacred Scripture teaches us that the creation of the Earth and of humanity in Adam & Eve was not an experiment or an act of curiosity by God, but was done purely out of sheer love that is beyond our ability to completely comprehend. The Incarnation of Christ is the "hedging" of God's bet on we humans, whose Fall was foreseen by God from all eternity. As hard as it is for many to believe that the Word became flesh in a particular time and place (2,000 years ago in Israel), or what Christian theologians call the "Scandal of Particularity", the same logic may apply to this debate as well. From a purely rationalist perspective it seems astronomically improbable that the one true God took on human nature and appeared to one people in one region in a remote and dusty outpost of the Roman Empire. Yet, for the Christian, that is exactly what happened. Why only there and why only then? If God could defy our human expectations in such a surprising way, perhaps he has similarly defied our human expectations by creating life alone on this one seemingly inconsequential rock in one particular corner of the vast universe? In arguing for the likelihood of other life forms in the universe, is there not a tendency to impose our thinking and logic on God's thought and activity? For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways—oracle of the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, my thoughts higher than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)Of course I remain open to the evidence that may contradict my belief....just haven't seen it.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 9, 2019 6:49:54 GMT -8
Out of curiousity, why? I know having a child isn't the same as God creating man & woman, but when most folks have a child, they later have more. Having additional children or repeating the process of creating mankind in different galaxies doesn't lessen the value of the first one (or of any of them). I think God is smart, so it would make sense he would hedge his bet and fire off a few Adams & Eves. From his standpoint, it would be interesting to see the differences between them as time advanced. Who knows, maybe we were the only one that lasted this long... Interesting points that are made. I guess I would respond by saying that Sacred Scripture teaches us that the creation of the Earth and of humanity in Adam & Eve was not an experiment or an act of curiosity by God, but was done purely out of sheer love that is beyond our ability to completely comprehend. The Incarnation of Christ is the "hedging" of God's bet on we humans, whose Fall was foreseen by God from all eternity. As hard as it is for many to believe that the Word became flesh in a particular time and place (2,000 years ago in Israel), or what Christian theologians call the "Scandal of Particularity", the same logic may apply to this debate as well. From a purely rationalist perspective it seems astronomically improbable that the one true God took on human nature and appeared to one people in one region in a remote and dusty outpost of the Roman Empire. Yet, for the Christian, that is exactly what happened. Why only there and why only then? If God could defy our human expectations in such a surprising way, perhaps he has similarly defied our human expectations by creating life alone on this one seemingly inconsequential rock in one particular corner of the vast universe? In arguing for the likelihood of other life forms in the universe, is there not a tendency to impose our thinking and logic on God's thought and activity? For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways—oracle of the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, my thoughts higher than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)Of course I remain open to the evidence that may contradict my belief....just haven't seen it. You make a very rational and logical argument against the existence of other life in the universe yet remain open to the possibility. well, done. My one objection is your comment about us imposing our thinking and logic on God, which is what I see you doing, as well. I often use that passage in Isaiah (and a similar one in Job) to explain to my friends and family that our inability to figure out how God can do such a thing, or why God would allow such a thing, does not constrain God. We might not (and quite likely can not) figure out God’s way, but God is God, nonetheless. This is not a criticism. I applaud your treatment here. Just my observation.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 9, 2019 7:53:31 GMT -8
While this thread has been intellectually interesting, on a forum with so many devout Christians it's not surprising that it's been a little one-sided. I still believe that we've searched only one square inch of a park the size of Yellowstone, so when we proclaim "Despite all our searching, we've found no signs of intelligent life", that proclamation is of dubious value. The fact that we haven't found evidence of any such life is no indicator that it doesn't exist.
Perhaps we should look at it relatively. While the odds of finding intelligent life on some insignificant planet in a remote galaxy may be infinitesimally small, those odds are still much higher than finding intelligent life on OCConnect.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 9, 2019 8:13:38 GMT -8
While this thread has been intellectually interesting, on a forum with so many devout Christians it's not surprising that it's been a little one-sided. I still believe that we've searched only one square inch of a park the size of Yellowstone, so when we proclaim "Despite all our searching, we've found no signs of intelligent life", that proclamation is of dubious value. The fact that we haven't found evidence of any such life is no indicator that it doesn't exist. Perhaps we should look at it relatively. While the odds of finding intelligent life on some insignificant planet in a remote galaxy may be infinitesimally small, those odds are still much higher than finding intelligent life on OCConnect. Your repeated observation about our small sample size prompts me to add the word “yet” to the statement that we have found no evidence. maybe we will, maybe we won’t... but, like you said, “intellectually interesting.” I am a little hesitant, however, to accept the adjective “devout,” attached to my Christianity (assuming I’m one to whom you were referring). Devout-ness is a state to which I aspire, but at which I often fail.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 9, 2019 8:30:54 GMT -8
I suppose "devout" is both a subjective and a relative term. To me, a person capable of quoting relevant Bible verses at a moment's notice, and who perhaps looks to the Bible more than he does to science to explain the history of intelligent life and of our species, qualifies for the adjective more than he doesn't.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on May 9, 2019 10:11:43 GMT -8
One of the things I find interesting about the possibility of intelligent extraterrestrial life is the common charge that it is "arrogant" to think that we humans are the only ones in the universe. But how does this follow? In the face of the total and complete lack of evidence for such E.T. life, might such a stance be more an act of modesty than one of arrogance? Just a thought. When you consider the technological advances in the past 50 years, and the resultant enlightenment and discovery of new species, it becomes increasingly more difficult to wrap my head around the notion that we "could" be the only life in the universe. What changes 100 years from now...1,000 years from now? Now imagine another planet has a 1,000 year head start on us.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on May 9, 2019 12:07:20 GMT -8
...In arguing for the likelihood of other life forms in the universe, is there not a tendency to impose our thinking and logic on God's thought and activity? Oh, definitely yes! I believe a sign of intelligence is admitting that one does not know what they don't know, and along those lines, there really is no way for me to understand God's thought & activity at his level. I have to dumb it down to my level and then be realistic about my mental limitations & imagination. I once tried to get into a discussion with Mr. Verhalen (sp?) about the Bible coming from a standpoint of pure imagination. I asked him what if the Bible was a book of fiction, not unlike Star Wars (it was 1978) and had been written by others and inadvertently left here during their visit. I know that is a silly premise, one that a 15 year old would entertain, but was interesting was that Verhalen just shut down the discussion instead of making a case showing how such speculation was incorrect. When I look back at it now, i can only surmise that this one of those areas where there is so much that we don't know, Verhalen didn't want to walk through that minefield with a bunch of adolescents who might just be looking to distract him from giving that days homework.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on May 9, 2019 12:07:50 GMT -8
Why do I get the feeling like I’m trying to discuss classical music with a bunch of Metallica enthusiasts?.......................Luca Fordama, is that you?
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Luca
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Post by Luca on May 9, 2019 14:26:59 GMT -8
When you consider the technological advances in the past 50 years, and the resultant enlightenment and discovery of new species, it becomes increasingly more difficult to wrap my head around the notion that we "could" be the only life in the universe. What changes 100 years from now...1,000 years from now? Now imagine another planet has a 1,000 year head start on us. Realistically we have to consider the possibility that there is intelligent life elsewhere and it has already discovered us but has opted not to make contact. Perhaps some of these curious UFO reports are legitimate but something like Star Trek's "Prime Directive" is in force and we are merely being observed rather than contacted. It may sound paranoid but, y'know, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get me.........................Luca
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