Bick
Administrator 
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Jul 13, 2019 7:55:16 GMT -8
No, what? You DO have a problem with kids wanting to go to a higher profile program, absent of the direct or recruiting by proxy? |
|
Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by Luca on Jul 13, 2019 8:43:32 GMT -8
That’s not what I said. Your initial question involved a kid transferring to a different high school for the football program. That’s different from the kid who simply wants to initially enroll at a given high school because of its program. Plenty do the latter and always have.
I don’t like the idea of athletic transfers at all because this is inevitably what it leads to. The current situation in OC started with Mater Dei when Bruce Robinson arrived. There had always been a trickle of athletic transfers from time immemorial but it became routine in the 90s. And we devolved from a situation where initially athletic transfers were frowned upon and various excuses proffered to now all anybody talks about in the off-season is who’s signing what 16 year old free-agent from what high school. In such a situation there will inevitably be recruiting and deception and corruption. How quaint do the CIF 500 series of regulations seem today?
High school has a purpose, Bick. HSFB is an extension of that purpose. Education and values. It was never intended for spineless administrators to provide a pipe dream for misguided parents and win-at-all-cost coaches. ..............Luca
|
|
|
|
Post by coach on Jul 13, 2019 8:48:46 GMT -8
I know the issue is parochial schools, however Mission Viejo, Los Alamitos, Poly and Edison had their years of numerous transfers. Do they count?
|
|
Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by Luca on Jul 13, 2019 8:56:20 GMT -8
Of course.
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Jul 13, 2019 9:47:08 GMT -8
No I meant transferring, Luca. 9th or 10th grader develops into a dude and wants to move to a higher profile program to better chances of being seen, and getting offered. That's a problem for you?
|
|
Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by Luca on Jul 13, 2019 14:17:59 GMT -8
I have concerns about athletic transfers in general. You can see for yourself what the end result of the inadequately regulated process is. Res ipse dixit (you’re the one who started with the Latin quotes, good buddy). Your question is little like asking me how I feel about nailing someone in the jaw with a right hand. In unusual circumstances it can be called for and is appropriate. (I have a funny story about that some time if you're interested, but again I digress) However, you keep lowering the bar for what is an “appropriate” indicator and pretty soon you have a riot.
To answer your question specifically: Yes, I have a "problem" with athletic transfers, but there are on occasion extenuating circumstances. CIF has always recognized this, which is why they had such things as "hardship" exceptions for evident athletic transfers. But now ”hardship” can be defined so loosely that it's no more effective than our southern border. They tried to tweak the rules a bit to reach a reasonable compromise and keep everyone happy, but the results demonstrated the adage that "When you’re up to your ass in alligators it can be difficult to remember that your initial intention was simply to drain the swamp.”
We should keep our eye on the ball, Bick. High school athletics were intended to give your students a chance to compete and play against other HS kids/schools and learn some viable lessons thereby. To this end, level playing fields are desirable. This is why the professional leagues have drafts, you understand. They don't simply allow the richest teams to buy all the best players. Admittedly it’s a bit of a strained analogy, but there is far more value for all in playing by the rules than is offered by the current anarchic system………………………………..Luca
|
|
|
|
Post by ProfessorFate on Jul 13, 2019 14:45:46 GMT -8
Loyola has held out, choosing to stay away from the recruiting wars. I read that may change starting this season. I don't know about Notre Dame.
|
|
Luca
Master Statesman
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by Luca on Jul 13, 2019 15:42:15 GMT -8
They had a Loyola alumni meeting down here in San Juan a few months ago.
The assistant HC was there and said that they're going to reinvigorate the program but still they weren't going to change their restrictions and go the route of some of their less inhibited brethren, who shall remain unnamed.
I took that to mean they're still not going to go the athletic transfer route and they weren't going to allow unsanctioned recruiting. They were going to start having football camps on campus like other schools, which I also took to mean that they hadn't been doing that already. I didn't know that.
I was glad to hear all this but at the same time I was thinking "Coach, absent the balls out recruiting approach you don't have a snowball's chance in hell."
Still, I prefer it that way. Kevin Rooney is still the head coach at Notre Dame as far as I know and I don't see why he'd want to change his approach and put up with all the parental BS this late in his career...................................Luca
|
|
Bick
Administrator
Posts: 6,900
|
Post by Bick on Jul 14, 2019 9:39:03 GMT -8
Let me take another stab at this. Who knows, if we find common ground here, we might stumble upon a viable solution that gets the world back to spinning on its axis. Clearly everything is my opinion, so I'll skip the IMO's
I think there are 2 distinct issues - recruiting and transferring.
Schools that recruit, directly or by proxy, belong in the academy world, and should compete with other academies.
Kids who want to transfer through their own volition for whatever reason, should be allowed to do so.
Here's a valid athletic reason for an xfer. Jr QB slated to back up a SR, has a freshman enroll with an SEC offer in hand. Writing is clearly on the wall next year, the underclassmen is going to get the nod.
Should that Jr QB be prevented from xfer?
|
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Jul 14, 2019 10:37:42 GMT -8
One slight correction...Doug Butler preceded Beuerlein, and was the QB that upset Edison in '81 on the way to the semifinals. The QB that followed Beuerlein was Eric Buechele, who won the CIF Title as a junior in '83. You are absolutely correct, thanks for that. All these "B" named quarterbacks were confusing... |
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Jul 14, 2019 11:01:08 GMT -8
I know the issue is parochial schools, however Mission Viejo, Los Alamitos, Poly and Edison had their years of numerous transfers. Do they count? Absolutely. Mission Viejo has their farm program, which Bob Johnson used as a tool for recruitment. The problem wasn't initially with MV or the farm program, but Johnson. He has had a horrible effect on South County football since his El Toro days. MV drank the kool-aid and now is as guilty as the parochial schools. When Edison & Poly were dominant in football in the 70's & early 80's, it was due more to the size of their schools than anything else. More kids, more chances at having excellent athletes. But while those schools would be good every year, they were not unbeatable. They had a star or two, but were not loaded at every position. The 1979 Edison team was a juggernaut, but were still upset by a smaller, lower division El Modena team with a 2nd string QB. The '81 Edison team was highly favored in the playoffs, yet lost to the aforementioned Servite team. The following year, Servite beat a more talented LB Poly team in the finals. The difference before recruiting is the better (larger) schools could still be beat by the smaller schools, it would happen a couple of times a year or so. Now, a smaller school (CDM, La Habra, Villa Park) considers it a positive to not get blown out by a Trinity league team. Heck, I think Servite went 0-5 in league play a few years back and still were ranked as a top 10 football team. As Luca wrote, HS football is not the reason why high schools exist, rather it is an extension of the schools. I would add that the reason parochial schools exist, the reason why they were founded, is to provide a Catholic education alternative to catholic families. That is no longer the case for the teams in the Trinity league.. |
|
SK80
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 7,376
|
Post by SK80 on Jul 14, 2019 11:32:44 GMT -8
I know the issue is parochial schools, however Mission Viejo, Los Alamitos, Poly and Edison had their years of numerous transfers. Do they count? As Luca wrote, HS football is not the reason why high schools exist, rather it is an extension of the schools. I would add that the reason parochial schools exist, the reason why they were founded, is to provide a Catholic education alternative to catholic families. That is no longer the case for the teams in the Trinity league..
www.sacbee.com/news/local/education/article232371867.html
The number of California students enrolled in private schools has fallen by nearly 25 percent since 2000 – dragged down by a significant drop in the number of students attending religious schools.
About 479,000 students in kindergarten through 12th grade attended private schools during the 2018-19 school year, compared to about 536,000 a decade prior and 637,000 in 2000, according to the California Department of Education.
The number of students in secular private schools – roughly 130,000 – has remained fairly steady since 2000. Religious schools have taken the biggest hits. The number of students enrolled in religion schools in California has dropped from about 506,000 in 2000 to about 339,000 during the last school year.
Do any of you know the Trinity numbers? In regards to Parochial schools it appears to me that they are growing? Or is this only in the spotlight on sports. Are athletes replacing non athlete students? Watching football and basketball it seems the Sierra Canyons and Grace Brethren's are popping up all over! |
|
MDDad
Master Eminence Grise
Posts: 6,814
|
Post by MDDad on Jul 14, 2019 13:24:35 GMT -8
Everything I'm about to say I say with the highest level of respect for everyone on this forum and in this thread.
There have been numerous threads and discussions on TOB and on this forum offering opinions and analyses on the state of local high school football (and particularly private high school football), and indictments of those who are believed to be the culprits for the current situation. For over five years, I've tried to use my exposure as an insider privy to many of these activities to clarify or refute some of these contentions. But the large number of factual errors and misinformed presumptions that dominate these discussions have motivated me to stop. I no longer have the time, energy, or inclination to try and describe what is really going on, or to correct the impressions of those who seem happy with what they believe.
Someone in this thread said, "The current situation in OC started with Mater Dei when Bruce Robinson (sic) arrived." There is so much factual evidence to refute that assertion that it's fascinating it would even be made. I guess the bottom line is: I know what I know, and you guys believe what makes you happy, and we'll go on as friends from here.
|
|
|
|
Post by frankieboy1 on Jul 14, 2019 14:09:35 GMT -8
I know for a fact that SM and JSerra are at capacity with waiting lists in at least 2 grades.
I suspect that at the HS level privates are growing, not contracting. I also suspect that they may be contracting at the lower grades due to cost, housing cost, departure of families with kids from California, decline in religious practice in general (which will impact Catholic and Christian schools most), fewer kids whatsoever.
Anyone have stats to back up this hypothesis?
|
|
RSM789
Eminence Grise
Posts: 2,286
|
Post by RSM789 on Jul 14, 2019 20:39:54 GMT -8
Someone in this thread said, " The current situation in OC started with Mater Dei when Bruce Robinson (sic) arrived." There is so much factual evidence to refute that assertion that it's fascinating it would even be made. I guess the bottom line is: I know what I know, and you guys believe what makes you happy... If I didn't know better, I would swear that Fordama has hacked your account. Saying there is so much factual evidence to refute what we say, but then not providing it is the Modis Operandi of that math teacher. From an outsider viewpoint, it looks pretty simple. Beginning in the early to mid 1980's, Mater Dei began to accept transfers of students with athletic prowess (& not necessarily Catholic) at numbers above the previous decades. They weren't at the obscene numbers seen at nearly all parochial schools today, but they were more than any other Orange County parochial school ever had. Within a few years, Mater Dei's basketball & football programs began their continued run of success. If I am wrong, please point out where. |
|
