MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Oct 21, 2019 7:47:55 GMT -8
I agree, Luca. And I still maintain that it's an issue of involuntary servitude. In this country you can't force someone to perform labor they don't want to perform, unless they are in prison or the military. We fought a war over that.
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Luca
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Post by Luca on Oct 21, 2019 12:41:28 GMT -8
That's a good point, on second thought. At first I thought that you couldn't consider this "involuntary servitude" because the baker is being paid for services. But whether or not he is paid for the services doesn't make any difference. It's the fact that he's compelled to do labor against his wishes. Even if you paid wages to a slave, he'd still be a slave..............................Luca
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Oct 21, 2019 18:59:12 GMT -8
The irony portion of this is how often liberal artists demand that conservative politicians not use their music at their events. In that case, they argue (correctly so) that the artists music is their labor and they have the right to decide who can & can't use it for public events. However, when you change the product from music to wedding cakes and bring in religion, then the left shifts its position.
If Adolph & Eva marched into a Jewish bakery and demanded a cake for their Nazi wedding, I wonder if the left would say that Isaac the baker has to make it?
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Oct 21, 2019 21:09:54 GMT -8
America is not Christian nation in the official sense of an established religion, but it nevertheless a nation built on a foundation of Christian culture with roots stretching back to Rome (law), Athens (philosophy), and Jerusalem (Christ). The attempt to erase this foundation has done and continues to do untold damage.
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Oct 21, 2019 21:35:26 GMT -8
If I walked into a bakery with my wife, asked them to bake us a wedding cake, and the owner said, "I'm sorry, but baking a cake for an Austrian and an Irish-Chinese woman is against my religion, I'd tell him to go eff himself, walk down the block to the next bakery, and buy one there. This is nothing but an attempt to destroy a small business owner's reputation and livelihood because he has different beliefs that defy the leftist agenda.
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Post by vilepagan on Oct 22, 2019 2:38:41 GMT -8
I think your argument is spurious. We wouldn't allow someone to refuse service to an interracial couple even if the person so doing claimed a religious exemption and I can't say I think much of this guy's religious beliefs when he uses them to excuse bigotry.
BTW, there's nothing "dubious" about gay people getting married anymore than there's something "dubious" about your marriage...your use of the word speaks volumes.
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Post by vilepagan on Oct 22, 2019 2:42:44 GMT -8
I don't think this argument holds much water considering that's what the guy's in business to do. His refusal to do so for gays is because he doesn't like gay people, not because he doesn't want to bake cakes.
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Post by vilepagan on Oct 22, 2019 2:51:08 GMT -8
And what if it were legal for all bakers to tell you and your wife (for whatever reason) to go get your cake elsewhere? You make it sound like bigotry is rare...it isn't. Just look around and read what your fellow citizens are saying. They want to find a legal way to say no to gay people, just like the way people in this country institutionalized bigotry against blacks. Soon we'll have "straight only" businesses...that should take you back a few years to the good old days of segregation.
Sometimes you make good arguments and then sometimes you post the most absurd nonsense...like that. Yes, the radical left's agenda includes destroying the reputation of a small town baker because he holds different beliefs.
How silly your arguments have become.
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Post by vilepagan on Oct 22, 2019 2:52:25 GMT -8
The attempt to keep people believing in medieval myths does more.
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Luca
Master Statesman
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Post by Luca on Oct 22, 2019 6:01:59 GMT -8
Again, you are trying to establish the false equivalency between fundamental civil rights and the concept of homosexual marriage. I assume the baker has sold many cakes to homosexuals in the past. That is not his issue. The issue is his religious opposition to homosexual marriage itself. Further, your interracial marriage analogy is unfounded since in the United States there is no recognized religion I am aware of that opposes interracial marriage, but many if not all have a long established opposition to homosexual marriage.
You aren’t obligated to think much of his religious believes just as he is not obligated to think much of the concept of homosexual marriage. But he does have a right to follow his religious convictions insofar as they do not violate basic human rights.
The baker evidently believes there is something dubious about the concept. If there were nothing dubious about homosexual marriage then there wouldn't be so many people and nations and religions dubious about it…………………………………….Luca
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Oct 22, 2019 6:21:19 GMT -8
The irony portion of this is how often liberal artists demand that conservative politicians not use their music at their events. In that case, they argue (correctly so) that the artists music is their labor and they have the right to decide who can & can't use it for public events. However, when you change the product from music to wedding cakes and bring in religion, then the left shifts its position. If Adolph & Eva marched into a Jewish bakery and demanded a cake for their Nazi wedding, I wonder if the left would say that Isaac the baker has to make it? How about if someone has the audacity of supporting the president? OK to deny them service? |
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Post by vilepagan on Oct 22, 2019 8:00:19 GMT -8
It's not a false equivalency. Marriage is regarded by the SC as a "fundamental civil right". This applies to gay people as well as straight people. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.
I would not make such an assumption.
Yet such marriages are legal and his protest will have no effect on such marriages...his actions only serve to discriminate against gay people.
And yet, despite their "long established opposition", gay marriage was made legal. The SC decided that their opposition was less important than gay people's rights...they should so decide again.
Correct. By refusing to serve gay people he's doing just that.
The fact that you think my rights are "dubious" says a lot about you, but nothing about my rights. Think what you will...the law's on my side.
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Post by vilepagan on Oct 22, 2019 8:05:09 GMT -8
Excellent question. Expect it to be discounted as irrelevant, a bad comparison, or simply ignored.
I think you'll find this sort of discrimination is only reserved for gays...because God doesn't like gay people, so it's ok for Christians to treat them badly. As a matter of fact, it makes them better Christians if they treat gays badly...or so the thinking apparently goes.
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Post by ProfessorFate on Oct 22, 2019 12:04:00 GMT -8
Again, you are trying to establish the false equivalency between fundamental civil rights and the concept of homosexual marriage. I assume the baker has sold many cakes to homosexuals in the past. That is not his issue. The issue is his religious opposition to homosexual marriage itself. Further, your interracial marriage analogy is unfounded since in the United States there is no recognized religion I am aware of that opposes interracial marriage, but many if not all have a long established opposition to homosexual marriage. You aren’t obligated to think much of his religious believes just as he is not obligated to think much of the concept of homosexual marriage. But he does have a right to follow his religious convictions insofar as they do not violate basic human rights. The baker evidently believes there is something dubious about the concept. If there were nothing dubious about homosexual marriage then there wouldn't be so many people and nations and religions dubious about it…………………………………….Luca The next step by the radical left would be to try to force Catholic priests to perform gay "marriages."  |
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duke
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Post by duke on Oct 22, 2019 12:08:44 GMT -8
Excellent question. Expect it to be discounted as irrelevant, a bad comparison, or simply ignored. I think you'll find this sort of discrimination is only reserved for gays...because God doesn't like gay people, so it's ok for Christians to treat them badly. As a matter of fact, it makes them better Christians if they treat gays badly...or so the thinking apparently goes. Maybe you should move to California. Christians don't treat gays badly here. Or maybe it's just you they don't like. |
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