Tom Brady - Goat or overrated?

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But you're also entitled to know that nobody on the planet agrees with you. What New England does with him gone, or what Tampa Bay does with him at 43 years old, are both irrelevant.

I guess my next task is to convince you that Buster Posey can't carry Mike Trout's jock when it comes to great baseball players.

Why would you say that when you just printed a list where two websites do agree with me.  Sportsbreak & Sportscasting had Montana as the Goat and Brady at number 4.  I can live with that.

Further, this is all subjective, based on how each of us define "greatest" and how various achievements stack up against that definition.  I understand I am in the minority with my opinion, but there are others who agree with my contention that Brady is not GOAT.  I am not making Wabashian arguments, I am giving valid reasons how I come to the conclusion I did.  For you to dismiss my opinion because it doesn't match other peoples opinions is pretty weak and actually kind of insulting.  I never took you as the "You must follow what the majority believes" type of person.

Additionally, look at those lists again and the lack of QB's who played before 1970.  Most of the people making those lists are 30-40 somethings who have never seen some of the older greats play and dismiss them out of ignorance.  They look at the stats QB's put up these days and forget the brutal beating offensive players took 50 -70 years ago.  It was a different game then than it is now and comparing stats really isn't equitable.  Do you really doubt that Fran Tarkenton, Roger Staubach, Terry Bradshaw, Ken Stabler, Bob Griese couldn't have won 6 Super Bowls in 9 attempts had they been born in a different era and played for Belichicks Patriots?  All of those QB's showed they could win Super Bowls and one of them showed he could do something Brady couldn't, win every SuperBowl game he played in.  Dan Fouts never won a Super Bowl, but do you really believe he couldn't have gone 6-3 in the Super Bowl had he been in Brady's shoes?

And despite your denials, the next two years will provide evidence one way or the other for Brady.  I already have said that if Brady leads the Bucs to the playoffs the next 2 years and the Patriots fail to win their division over that same time, I would consider Brady as GOAT.  I just don't see either of those two things happening, based on my opinion of Brady and why won & lost those Super Bowls.  He is a talented QB that was in the right place at the right time, good enough to be recognized as a Hall of Famer but not GOAT.

When comparing players of different generations, all you really have is hypotheticals. The game has changed, both in rules and how it is approached, that you can't use statistics to make an accurate comparison.

Brady also guided the only undefeated team to a Super Bowl loss. That is worth a double take. That Patriot team is the only 1 loss team in NFL history to not win a SuperBowl. There has to be some kind of subtraction from the GOAT award for that.

If you want to argue that Brady has the most accomplishments, then that goes unsaid. However, we are talking about the GOAT and there are so many factors (in my opinion) that go into it beyond just Super Bowl wins & appearance. Obviously, that gets you into the discussion immediately, but it doesn't automatically give you the award.

Our disagreement about the 60's Celtics centers around your belief that the Celtics were loaded with talent while I believe Russell made those other Celtic players better than they would have been had Chamberlain or Jabbar been the center. Difficult to prove or disprove for either of us. However I submit that those Celtics continually beat a more talent laden Lakers team, including one that had Chamberlain in the later years. Chamberlains titles came towards the end of his career, when he didn't score as much and made more assists. Jabbar's titles were also stacked at the end of his career, when he had Magic Johnson at his side. Russell won titles no matter who he was playing with, at the beginning, middle and end of his career and those Celtics did not win titles in the years before or after Russell was there (until they completely rebuilt the team in the mid 70's).

One last thing regarding GOATS. Many consider Jordan to be GOAT, however it needs to be noted that he, like Kobe Bryant, could only win a title when he had Phil Jackson as a coach. Both of those players had basically the same team under different coaches and did not win titles or even make it to the finals. Russell won under different coaches, one being himself, while both Magic & Bird won titles under different coaches while having to also face each other and a talent loaded 76ers team every year. Looking at the coaching involved should factor into the choice for GOAT.

Is Peyote still legal?

I was watching ESPN's "100 greatest NFL teams" and it got me to thinking more about this topic. I double checked & since 1950, there have been 10 different QB's who have won back to back titles. It has happened 13 times, Bradshaw did it twice and Starr 3 times (once back to back and once threepeat, which counts as 2 back to backs). Here is that list -

Bobby Layne
Otto Graham
Johnny Unitas
Bart Starr (3)
Bob Griese
Terry Bradshaw (2)
Joe Montana
Troy Aikman
John Elway
Tom Brady

I bring this up because it would be difficult to leave any of these 10 guys off of the top 10 list when trying to determine GOAT. However, most of the rating sights seem to start QB ratings only with players who played in the last 40 years. I think it may be human nature to believe the guys you watched playing were better than guys who came before them.

Just some more perspective for the discussion.

 Actually no.  I think I had mentioned before, if Brady makes Tampa an Elite team, even making it to the Super bowl, much less winning, then I would list him as GOAT.  That would be quite an accomplishment, especially if the Patriots then nose dive and miss the playoffs.

I'm glad he has Gronk, it improves Tampa and takes away excuses why the Bucs shouldn't be at least a playoff team.  The next two years will tell us quite a bit about the value of Brady to the Patriots.

One caveat, if Brady does indeed cheat and do something like he has in the past, then I reserve the right to not call him GOAT should he succeed.  I'm not sure if his Tampa teammates and coaches would appreciate a new guy coming into the team and deflating footballs or throwing salt in his opponents eyes.