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Post by ProfessorFate on Feb 25, 2019 23:16:40 GMT -8
Wow! Two excellent videos. Rubin was very interesting, and Prager absolutely nailed it! Thank You Credo, for posting them, and thanks to Bick for starting this thread. I feel much more confidant about understanding the difference between liberal and leftist.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 28, 2019 6:00:22 GMT -8
In order to really get a handle on this subject, I think it's important to better understand what the differences are between moderate democrats, liberals, and leftists...and NOT just lump them all into the same bucket. I think it was Credo who started us down this path with his contrast of the liberal JFK with today’s progressive... and even that term “progressive” is different today than it used to be. in my own circles, I have friends who are liberal, and I have friends who are liberal zealots. My pastors wife is a liberal. I can argue with her and we disagree over most things, but she listens and presents ( and supoorts) her perspective. In the end, she states we should agree to disagree and we move on. as I’ve already stated about my sister in law, she can’t have a reasoned discussion, she cannot support her position because she has no basis for it other than a tag line some politician has given her from sa headline. Invariably, she doesn’t so much argue as lay down edicts and when pressed,she will change the subject or put on the victim act about how imcalling her a liar or similar. I have differentiated these two groups as “liberals” and “liberal zealots” so as not to offend my liberal friends. the term “leftist” is new to me so I’m not sure into which group they fit. |
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Feb 28, 2019 8:05:48 GMT -8
Liberals are lax, seem to want better for everyone else yet the means to the ends is a different path than what I would take. Leftists or the term no being thrown around a lot in this country are people in my opinion whom are or want to adopt some sort of other government which in their minds is a better and more fair system. However their examples around the world and historically are simply failed experiments in governing.
With my friends its come down to this without using any of the names, tags, descriptions.... The "individual" or self responsibility or governing vs. those whom believe the "collective" or others or governments know and can do better for you than you for yourself or community.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 28, 2019 8:53:40 GMT -8
I think it was Credo who started us down this path with his contrast of the liberal JFK with today’s progressive... and even that term “progressive” is different today than it used to be. in my own circles, I have friends who are liberal, and I have friends who are liberal zealots. My pastors wife is a liberal. I can argue with her and we disagree over most things, but she listens and presents ( and supoorts) her perspective. In the end, she states we should agree to disagree and we move on. as I’ve already stated about my sister in law, she can’t have a reasoned discussion, she cannot support her position because she has no basis for it other than a tag line some politician has given her from sa headline. Invariably, she doesn’t so much argue as lay down edicts and when pressed,she will change the subject or put on the victim act about how imcalling her a liar or similar. I have differentiated these two groups as “liberals” and “liberal zealots” so as not to offend my liberal friends. the term “leftist” is new to me so I’m not sure into which group they fit. Your run of the mill liberal sounds like your pastor's wife, and I'd put your SIL in the leftist bucket. I would also put our distinguished colleagues from TOB in the leftist bucket as well. The inability to support your position beyond talking points, and then doubling down with ridicule of an opposing position, puts you right in the middle of that bucket. FWIW, I believe this is the foundation for the more violent arm - antifa. |
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Feb 28, 2019 10:55:05 GMT -8
So, to clarify, liberals are reasoned people, they just believe in bigger government will solve our problems.
Leftists sound synonymous with progressives or those I call “liberal zealots.”
Right?
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Feb 28, 2019 12:02:12 GMT -8
The more we discuss this, I'd lump liberals and progressives into the same bucket. Even though we may not agree to approach, they seem to have more thought behind their positions.
There's no reasoning with what I'd call a leftist.
It looks as though I've mis-named this forum. Should be the non-leftist forum.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on Feb 28, 2019 21:27:13 GMT -8
In our family, political viewpoints range from moderately conservative to libertarian, and when politics are brought up, it typically is a discussion and not a debate. I am interested in what my relatives think, but I don't feel a need to beat them into submission in order for them to say I am right ("a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"). No debate tactics, no trying to win, just a discussion among family members.
One of my nephews is a pretty intelligent young man in his early 30's. He earned a Masters in Psychology, worked for the state in the prison system for a few years until he got laid off. Just before Christmas in 2017, we had a family get together. As the evening wore on, his comments on topics began to go further & further left. When he made a statement about the newly passed tax cut being "a gift to the rich", my oldest brother began to question him. In the same way Dave described his interactions with his sister-in-law, my brother would take something my nephew said and ask him why he believed that. The response was never an answer to the question, but rather a change of subject with some other leftist talking point spewed out. My brother hung on like a greenhorn on a raging bucking bull, continuing to probe as to how my nephew came up with the (incorrect) views that he was sharing. Finally, my nephew got up, said something about how condescending my brother was being and left. In the 14 months since, he has said nary a word to my brother & I, even when we attended his wedding last April.
I firmly believe the extended years of schooling and years of working for the government created a cocoon where the leftist ideas he had were never challenged. When he finally got out in the real world with family who cares about him enough to calmly discuss his opinions, he couldn't handle it. He chose to end a relationship with uncles who have been part of his life since the day he was born instead of examining the things that were said and either further embracing his beliefs or realizing he was wrong. His behavior seems to be the normal M.O. nowadays for those on the left.
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Feb 28, 2019 21:36:06 GMT -8
The more we discuss this, I'd lump liberals and progressives into the same bucket. |
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Credo
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Post by Credo on Mar 1, 2019 12:25:21 GMT -8
Post #1,000!
Here is where the Left is taking us: Joe Biden having to grovel and apologize for saying what is self-evidently true.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on Mar 1, 2019 13:13:29 GMT -8
In our family, political viewpoints range from moderately conservative to libertarian, and when politics are brought up, it typically is a discussion and not a debate. I am interested in what my relatives think, but I don't feel a need to beat them into submission in order for them to say I am right ("a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"). No debate tactics, no trying to win, just a discussion among family members. One of my nephews is a pretty intelligent young man in his early 30's. He earned a Masters in Psychology, worked for the state in the prison system for a few years until he got laid off. Just before Christmas in 2017, we had a family get together. As the evening wore on, his comments on topics began to go further & further left. When he made a statement about the newly passed tax cut being "a gift to the rich", my oldest brother began to question him. In the same way Dave described his interactions with his sister-in-law, my brother would take something my nephew said and ask him why he believed that. The response was never an answer to the question, but rather a change of subject with some other leftist talking point spewed out. My brother hung on like a greenhorn on a raging bucking bull, continuing to probe as to how my nephew came up with the (incorrect) views that he was sharing. Finally, my nephew got up, said something about how condescending my brother was being and left. In the 14 months since, he has said nary a word to my brother & I, even when we attended his wedding last April. I firmly believe the extended years of schooling and years of working for the government created a cocoon where the leftist ideas he had were never challenged. When he finally got out in the real world with family who cares about him enough to calmly discuss his opinions, he couldn't handle it. He chose to end a relationship with uncles who have been part of his life since the day he was born instead of examining the things that were said and either further embracing his beliefs or realizing he was wrong. His behavior seems to be the normal M.O. nowadays for those on the left. We had... and watched a similar scenario unfold with my step daughter. She graduated from a Christian high school and fancied herself an artist. Unfortunately she learned art and had no natural skill. She coerced her father to pay for a 4-year art degree from a corporate art school where she knew NO conservatives and no Christians, and where she was surrounded by liberals and indoctrinated into the liberal philosophies by her professors and fellow art students. Because she was several hundred miles away, she was able to cut off influence from us, from church, and from her local friends, as her views on right and wrong changed. Because I am more outspoken in my views, I became the first casualty: she hasn’t voluntarily spoken to me in years. so I completely know what you’re talking about, RSM. |
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Mar 1, 2019 13:41:35 GMT -8
Hey I have an Art Degree and went to maybe the most liberal college in America back east and I came out somewhat unscathed! I credit my county of old, my city and it's schools as well as my parents for having the fortiude to keep my young mind screw on straight!
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Mar 1, 2019 14:14:10 GMT -8
You're right, SK, sanity can be maintained. By oldest son got his Masters in Economic Engineering at Cal Berkeley (how's that for a scary combination of majors and schools?), yet he's still conservative as hell.
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Mar 1, 2019 14:26:43 GMT -8
You're right, SK, sanity can be maintained. By oldest son got his Masters in Economic Engineering at Cal Berkeley (how's that for a scary combination of majors and schools?), yet he's still conservative as hell. OMG! The school that shuts down "FREE SPEECH"! Did he ever lead on.......? Aka remained a "Closet Conservative"? My wife and I have spent our entire lives in the entertainment industry, she stills plays the game fairly well claiming she is apolitical, I on the other hand have not faired as well. It's amazing for those whom have lived on both sides can see how myopic and NOT accepting of others is the left. I grew up in CDM and my family from San Marino-Pasadena both (historically) conservative enclaves. I went to college in NYC and attended a very social left institution for 4 years and remained in NYC for some years more totaling a decade. I then relocated to Hollywood/LA for most of my adult life in yet another politically far left culture and industry. The only way I have ever survived is I am back in Newport once a week to see my friends and my parents. Hanging out a night a week at Blacks and catching a CDM Football or Volleyball game had kept me sane now for decades! |
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Post by ProfessorFate on Mar 1, 2019 14:56:52 GMT -8
Kudos to those who have been able to resist the indoctrination camps of the left. I suppose that would include all of us who defected from TOB, on a somewhat smaller scale.  |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Mar 1, 2019 16:50:21 GMT -8
Kudos to those who have been able to resist the indoctrination camps of the left. I suppose that would include all of us who defected from TOB, on a somewhat smaller scale. Well, some of us defected. Others were helped out with a boot in the ass. |
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