Bick
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Post by Bick on May 31, 2020 7:37:32 GMT -8
This seems like one of those abstract terms that have no real meaning in today's world. Looking back at the 60's, there were clear examples of racism being "systemic", or as I'll define it, condoned by sections of the government. Racial prejudice by those in power in government, today, seems non-existent...or I can't find any clear policy examples of it.
I'm not suggesting racial prejudice doesn't exist. It certainly does. But it's not a white only mechanism, as it's being portrayed yet again.
Do any of you have current examples of systemic racism or what this guy is talking about?
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thefrog
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Post by thefrog on May 31, 2020 7:57:19 GMT -8
We should probably start with the modern definition of racism. It appears to have been bastardized to such a degree that it deserves a new word.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on May 31, 2020 9:58:21 GMT -8
We should probably start with the modern definition of racism. It appears to have been bastardized to such a degree that it deserves a new word. I literally can't find a single policy ANYWHERE that supports what anyone is defining as "structural racism". Yet they're protesting / rioting about it.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on May 31, 2020 10:07:39 GMT -8
Gavin Newsom doesn't understand the words that are coming out of Gavin Newsoms mouth. Just the fact that he is trying to make a hero out of George Floyd shows that. Floyd was a victim, not a hero. He was not an innocent who was killed by racism, he was a criminal who was killed by police brutality.
Fact is, there are very few innocent black people who are killed by other races because of racism. An overwhelming majority of situations where an innocent black person is killed are due to various crimes (theft, assault, gang activities). That goes for all races, there are very few instances in this day & age where race is the impetus for the murder to be committed, and most of those tend to be against Jewish people.
Listing racism as the cause for George Floyd's murder is similar to listing Covid19 as the cause of death for over 100,000 people.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 31, 2020 10:19:40 GMT -8
My perspective is, racism exists (that is, making a value judgement on a person based on the color of their skin or on their perceived race), but it is not systemic. To answer your question, no, I cannot bring to mind a single example of implicit or explicit racism in government, overall, but I can think of individuals IN government who do appear to be racists. Mayor Lightfoot from Chicago, for example, is one such.
my use of the word “appear” [to be racists]: We whites are accused of inherent racism, that is, we are racist in our minds. I do not believe that is accurate. It is my understanding we can only identify racism by actions we can see. Whether or not an individual has racist thoughts is irrelevant: Absent conversion to faith in Christ, nothing can be done about our thoughts and, in fact, we don’t even know the thoughts of another (never mind assign meaning to one’s thoughts based on our belief they are there). Sometimes, even if we see racist acts, the individual might not be a racist at all, just has some,other kind of personal issue with the other person... and this is where the media mislabels behaviors so frequently.
for example, a black man rapes my daughter. I find him at some later date, and let’s really stack the deck here, walking to his car with his family and confront him. A local news outlet sees the confrontation, turns on the cameras, which ONLY see me grab the guy and threaten him with prison... he pushes me, I push him back... VOILA, on TV that night, “WHITE MAN IN RACIST ATTACK.”
so, no, racism is not systemic and, in fact, the races were healing fairly well until President Obama exacerbated the tension with his constant need for approval and, likely, validation as a “black man” (he was only bi-racial).
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 31, 2020 10:27:48 GMT -8
My perspective is, racism exists (that is, making a value judgement on a person based on the color of their skin or on their perceived race), but it is not systemic. Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics, but I think systemic/structural racism DOES exist, it's just not the kind one might think. Affirmative action and race-based quota systems are racist by definition. So is the NFL policy of requiring at least two black candidates to be interviewed for head coaching vacancies. And there are many other examples.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 31, 2020 11:07:16 GMT -8
My perspective is, racism exists (that is, making a value judgement on a person based on the color of their skin or on their perceived race), but it is not systemic. Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics, but I think systemic/structural racism DOES exist, it's just not the kind one might think. Affirmative action and race-based quota systems are racist by definition. So is the NFL policy of requiring at least two black candidates to be interviewed for head coaching vacancies. And there are many other examples. I don’t disagree... but Bick asked about examples in government.
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davidsf
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Post by davidsf on May 31, 2020 11:12:04 GMT -8
I just had a discussion with an old High School chum. She has gotten swept up in the media-driven George Floyd “WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING” hysteria and has been demanding to know what we can each do, individually to prevent officer-involved shootings.
my response to her is pertinent to this discussion:
For your edification, those 9 were: Steven Cole Gill 2019-09-02, De'Von Bailey 2019-08-03, Melvin Watkins 2019-09-14, Christopher Whitfield 2019-10-1, Roy McAllister 2019-11-1, Michael Dean 2019-12-02, Taveonte Art Emmanuel 2019-12-19 Kenneth Collins 2019-12-22 Antonio Smith 2019-12-26
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 31, 2020 11:55:38 GMT -8
I think in examples like this latest one, it is too easy to get emotionally wrapped up in one case (that's what the left does best) and stop seeing the big picture. We are a nation of 330 million people, and there will always be a small percentage of us who hates African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, Jews, Muslims, etc., for no other reason than that they are of different races, ethnicities or religious beliefs. And some small percentage of that small percentage will find ways to rise to positions of power where they can indulge that hatred with some measure of impunity, be it as a police officer, drill sergeant or prison guard.
Despite what the left may wish for, we will never eliminate them all. Yes, we can better screen and remove those kinds of cadets, rookies, military and prison personnel, but they will always be there in some numbers. The best we can do in those cases is to keep our heads and prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on May 31, 2020 12:47:47 GMT -8
I think in examples like this latest one, it is too easy to get emotionally wrapped up in one case (that's what the left does best) and stop seeing the big picture. We are a nation of 330 million people, and there will always be a small percentage of us who hates African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, Jews, Muslims, etc., for no other reason than that they are of different races, ethnicities or religious beliefs. And some small percentage of that small percentage will find ways to rise to positions of power where they can indulge that hatred with some measure of impunity, be it as a police officer, drill sergeant or prison guard. Despite what the left may wish for, we will never eliminate them all. Yes, we can better screen and remove those kinds of cadets, rookies, military and prison personnel, but they will always be there in some numbers. The best we can do in those cases is to keep our heads and prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law. Yeah, I get that. But when politicians, or anyone with enough intellect who can refrain from setting buildings on fire are calling for an end to systematic racism, aren't they calling for an end to something specific, and NOT the general hatred / dislike some races have for each other?
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on May 31, 2020 13:25:59 GMT -8
If you're asking for an explanation of how Newsom's brain works and what he's calling for, I'm not up to the task. I think he is a horrific politician who is always pandering and campaigning, and I think everything he says and does is in support of those two priorities. In this case, the only "structural" or "systemic" issues might be the frequency with which officers like this are found to be innocent after internal affairs reviews what they did, and the ability of damaged cops like this one to keep his job. However, the officer has already been arrested and charged with murder, so perhaps the protesters should find a way to articulate what it is they want. I wouldn't hold my breath for that to happen, as it looks like the typical "protest" with no purpose other than to mill around late at night, loot stores and damage private property.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on May 31, 2020 13:29:36 GMT -8
It's more than just him. I think this has a different flavor to it given multiple politicians saying "it" needs to change. Ordinarily, everyone seems to come out in condemnation of the rioting. Now it's almost as though they're condoning it.
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Luca
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Post by Luca on May 31, 2020 13:29:46 GMT -8
Gavin Newsom doesn't understand the words that are coming out of Gavin Newsoms mouth. You can add me to that list. I was trying to look up a quote I vaguely remember from Ludwig Wittgenstein, something to the effect that the insoluble problems of philosophy (including the current topic) are often simply a problem with the definition of words. But I came across a different one that conveys the same idea: "The limits of my language means the limits of my world."I agree with frog that "We should probably start with the modern definition of racism." I had to take a class in ethnic studies in college with a prof who had this interesting definition we all had to memorize. It defined racism in part as a collection of negative beliefs and expectations attributed to a group of people based on their race alone. There was more to it than that, but that's all I remember. Given that, I had to agree that I was a racist and I suspect the vast majority of people are. We will have preconceptions, sometimes negative. The trick is to be aware of your a priori conceptions and make sure that they don't creep into your behavior. It's the behavior that would make you a racist. But I likewise don't understand what is meant by "structural racism." I'm not aware of any guidelines or protocols - legal or otherwise - that discriminate against people based on race, other than what MDDad pointed out. UCI is not largely Asian because of "structural racism". As has been stated endlessly elsewhere, inequality of outcomes does not equal racism. Otherwise the NBA would be amongst the most racist organizations in America. If you cannot define the problem, if you cannot express it in understandable terms - or if it does not exist - how can you correct it? Gavin Newsom embarrasses me. He had - it kills me - a Jesuit education and he certainly learned the obfuscation part, but must have skipped the courses on clarity.......................................Luca
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thefrog
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Post by thefrog on May 31, 2020 13:56:30 GMT -8
Gavin lack's his own message. He molds his beliefs to those of the voters; look at his Covid19 policy. One week he's touting a lockdown to the nth degree, the next he's opening up due to public outcry.
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RSM789
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Post by RSM789 on May 31, 2020 14:29:11 GMT -8
Gavin Newsom doesn't understand the words that are coming out of Gavin Newsoms mouth. ...It's the behavior that would make you a racist... I had this conversation with my kids as teenagers, under the guise of the difference between observation, stereotypes, prejudice and racism. One example I would give was: Observation - Many poor drivers that you see on the road turn out to be of Asian descent Stereotype - Asians are bad drivers Prejudice - That guy in the lane to me is a bad driver because he looks Asian Racism - Asians should be denied drivers licenses because they are bad drivers. It is a simple, harmless example, but by delineating where stereotypes & prejudge become racism, it doesn't dilute the grossness of racism. I have always believed that many on the left have no issue calling their opponents racist because they don't understand the meaning of the word and are substituting stereotyping or prejudicial behavior as racist. Those on the right are abhorred by the accusation, because we know what is involved with being a racist and what a terrible person that makes you.
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