MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Oct 17, 2021 9:26:37 GMT -8
I suppose in baseball there also pro managers and fans who would rather win the AAA minor league championship than play in the MLB playoffs.
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Oct 17, 2021 9:35:24 GMT -8
All this whining and manipulation of Calpreps ratings is turning into a joke. Maybe divisional placement should be based solely on enrollment numbers (multiplied by two for all-boys schools). Then gutless coaches couldn't drop a division for the playoffs by tanking a game or two. Instead, the school would have to expel a bunch of kids to lower their student population, and I doubt many schools would be willing to do that. If divisions being determined AFTER the season was done to get closer to competitive fairness - the rationale using the calpreps system rankings post-season - and then there's built-in discretion used to determine the size of the top bracket, then why the hell don't they use that same discretion to group the teams in the top division that are the most competitive with each other? The rest of the brackets are very competitive. I'll bet the lions believed the Christians were gutless also for trying to figure out how not to get thrown into the den. FWIW, I think it's worse than gutless to WANT to play a team you're going to roll. It would be like Los Al coaches wanting to play Fountain Valley in the playoffs. I'd say the same thing to them. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Oct 17, 2021 9:36:43 GMT -8
I suppose in baseball there also pro managers and fans who would rather win the AAA minor league championship than play in the MLB playoffs. Are you seriously suggesting the coaches are gutless for not wanting to play you? |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Oct 17, 2021 9:39:20 GMT -8
If you roll with a system that can easily be gamed, this is what you'll get. Look for some more upsets the last 2 weeks. Upsets? You can't be supporting, advocating, suggesting the notion of "tanking" or "throwing"...?  The shock is that anyone would be surprised that a system that can so easily be gamed...gets gamed. |
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Oct 17, 2021 10:21:38 GMT -8
Upsets? You can't be supporting, advocating, suggesting the notion of "tanking" or "throwing"...? The shock is that anyone would be surprised that a system that can so easily be gamed...gets gamed. Not sure I can answer that or follow your exact thinking or point without an example of or definition of your idea or accusation of gaming? Not sure this is on point either, but for perspective purpose, there will be claims of foul play or serious elation or disappoinment wherever they move the goal post in any imperfect system such as the one we use for CIF. One week you are top dog in a lower division, the next the bottom dog in a higher division. I think Sixthman in his last reply also makes a good point. Look, we have all beat the dead horse for years about the top dog schools in D1 or OPEN or whatever the flavored term of the season it is.... , but it is what it is, @bick, for weeks you have been posting probable playoffs for D1 and D2, certainly, be honest, sitting at #9 for weeks had you giddy with visions of championship rings. Now at #8 the system is rigged? Gamed? Played? So it was good last week but not this week? Sorry, I might be jumping the shark here as I haven't heard your explanation of being "gamed" so in all fairness I'll pause. It's frustrating, I'll give you that.  |
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Oct 17, 2021 10:24:31 GMT -8
I suppose in baseball there also pro managers and fans who would rather win the AAA minor league championship than play in the MLB playoffs. Are you seriously suggesting the coaches are gutless for not wanting to play you? ya MDDad Im w/ Bick here....., is there real honor in being another Colonel Custer!! |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Oct 17, 2021 10:28:48 GMT -8
FWIW, I think it's worse than gutless to WANT to play a team you're going to roll. It would be like Los Al coaches wanting to play Fountain Valley in the playoffs. I'd say the same thing to them. For what it's worth, I don't know a single high school football coach who WANTS to play a team they know they will roll. And maybe we're a little to single-sport focused here. It wasn't too many years ago when Harvard-Westlake was absolutely unbeatable in boys water polo, but I don't remember any discussions about tanking games to avoid them. The same was true of tiny Santa Ana Calvary Chapel in wrestling two decades ago. They won every meet by a landslide, but nobody went out of their way to skip wrestling them. The same was true of Mission Viejo swim teams when every member of the Nadadores club enrolled in the school. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Oct 17, 2021 10:32:42 GMT -8
I suppose in baseball there also pro managers and fans who would rather win the AAA minor league championship than play in the MLB playoffs. Are you seriously suggesting the coaches are gutless for not wanting to play you? Maybe I come from a time when I remember coaches teaching their players that you play whomever the rules place in front of you, rather than planning strategies for how to drop a division for an easier run at a ring. And I hope I have the character to believe I'd feel the same way if the situation were reversed. |
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MDDad
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Post by MDDad on Oct 17, 2021 10:34:41 GMT -8
Are you seriously suggesting the coaches are gutless for not wanting to play you? ya MDDad Im w/ Bick here....., is there real honor in being another Colonel Custer!! I think there's more honor in getting beat while playing your best than in intentionally folding a few good hands in poker to get moved to an easier table. |
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Bick
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Post by Bick on Oct 17, 2021 11:10:30 GMT -8
The shock is that anyone would be surprised that a system that can so easily be gamed...gets gamed. Not sure I can answer that or follow your exact thinking or point without an example of or definition of your idea or accusation of gaming? Not sure this is on point either, but for perspective purpose, there will be claims of foul play or serious elation or disappoinment wherever they move the goal post in any imperfect system such as the one we use for CIF. One week you are top dog in a lower division, the next the bottom dog in a higher division. I think Sixthman in his last reply also makes a good point. Look, we have all beat the dead horse for years about the top dog schools in D1 or OPEN or whatever the flavored term of the season it is.... , but it is what it is, @bick, for weeks you have been posting probable playoffs for D1 and D2, certainly, be honest, sitting at #9 for weeks had you giddy with visions of championship rings. Now at #8 the system is rigged? Gamed? Played? So it was good last week but not this week? Sorry, I might be jumping the shark here as I haven't heard your explanation of being "gamed" so in all fairness I'll pause. It's frustrating, I'll give you that. I've been consistent saying the gap between the top 4 and bottom 4 in Div 1 was huge, and the top 4 should be in their own division - just like San Diego has done since 2018. I also said being the top seed in the divisions after 1 doesn't have the same advantage as it did before because the groupings of 1-16 are very close to together. Gaming this system is easy. Don't schedule up and don't blow anyone out. Some coaches on the cusp may even intentionally lose a game. Is it honorable? Absolutely NOT. Is it honorable to take the best players from another school to fill your roster with kids to serve as bench strength, who might not even play for you while you pursue some bullshit mythical national championship? Had this rule been in effect in 2019, you guys would've been 10-1. Would you have been "frustrated", or something else? |
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Post by frankieboy1 on Oct 17, 2021 19:48:31 GMT -8
in Arizona (where I now live) the divisions are set by enrollment-but on top of that the top 8 teams in 4A, 5A and 6A are put into an Open Division playoff. Works here-the best play the best, and the rest get competitive playoff brackets.
I suspect that CIF-SS should do the same-but limit Open to the top 4 teams. MD, SJB, Servite and Corona Centennial. A 5-20 D1 bracket would be very competitive.
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Post by frankieboy1 on Oct 17, 2021 19:49:20 GMT -8
What I don't get here is that they don't do Open Division for basketball. 2 best teams in Arizona last winter were 4A schools.
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SK80
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Post by SK80 on Oct 19, 2021 7:22:48 GMT -8
And maybe we're a little to single-sport focused here. The title of the thread contains the word "FOOTBALL". |
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SK80
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Posts: 7,376
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Post by SK80 on Oct 19, 2021 7:25:18 GMT -8
ya MDDad Im w/ Bick here....., is there real honor in being another Colonel Custer!! I think there's more honor in getting beat while playing your best than in intentionally folding a few good hands in poker to get moved to an easier table. The sport of "FOOTBALL" is not sitting at a table with a cigar and beer passing cards......, "FOOTBALL" is a brutal physical and violent sport. Unless you are talking about being shot with a six-shooter from across the table, this is a narrow minded analogy. |
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SK80
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Posts: 7,376
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Post by SK80 on Oct 19, 2021 7:56:45 GMT -8
I've been consistent saying the gap between the top 4 and bottom 4 in Div 1 was huge, and the top 4 should be in their own division - just like San Diego has done since 2018. I also said being the top seed in the divisions after 1 doesn't have the same advantage as it did before because the groupings of 1-16 are very close to together. Gaming this system is easy. Don't schedule up and don't blow anyone out. Some coaches on the cusp may even intentionally lose a game. Is it honorable? Absolutely NOT. Is it honorable to take the best players from another school to fill your roster with kids to serve as bench strength, who might not even play for you while you pursue some bullshit mythical national championship? Had this rule been in effect in 2019, you guys would've been 10-1. Would you have been "frustrated", or something else? I think we all know as of right NOW, the top 4, maybe 5 are above the rest..., although I don't understand why you wouldn't want a crack at MV and MV is right there on paper with Centennial if you weigh best wins not entire schedule, so is the middle of this pack closer than you think? Again, we know the elites, but my point is wherever you draw that line someone gets the better or worse of it. If you really think the top 4 are head and shoulders above (likely!), then your frustration is that 5-8 or possibly 10 are sacrificial lambs. According to MDDad, you should have dignity in being food for football feast. No, no respectable team should play down, throw games, etc. Again, is any system totally fair. Frustration, I have brought this up for us many a time, being literally taken chances at CIF Titles and maybe State Championships by built teams like Sierra Canyon and Grace Brethren, teams that I feel shouldn't be in our playoff brackets. But we played the games, took SC to double OT losing on a 2 pt.s conversion, losing to a fabricated, recruited team like GB and then coming back the next year to defeat them on a way to a State Championship. That builds character, that builds programs. Sometimes I think of it this way, Chase Garbers had to be that sacrificial lamb so his brother Ethan could become state champ. We have beaten this horse to death, but I still think taking privates and publics into different directions would create more competitive outcomes, how long will we go, or how likely will it be the bottom 3 in Trinity, or a Alemany, sierra Canyon or another Grace Brethren comes along and wins D2 every year? YA SO WE R ALL FRUSTRATED.... PLAY BALL!! |
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